General information on the shortcomings and usefullness of the sts turbo system

[black34v6]

im not a tiago worshiper. im a realist. i know how things are in the real world. i talk to tiago all the time and i ask him regularly how his biz is going. he tells me all the hardships he has to deal with. funny thing is, if people dont see results asap, they instantly assume that someone is ripping them off - instead of asking questions or inquring as to what is going on. tiago is a good person and im tired of seeing him break his back while people like you tear him down -- for you and all of you that think tiago is putting out a second rate product simply cause he isnt a multi-million dollar company or becaus ehes doing this BY HIMSELF WITH NO OTHER HELP out of his damn garage while holding down a full time job -- f--k you. straight up. thats all i have to say to all you people who are hating.

as for the whole "notch in the k-member" -- think of this. when you hit a pole or rear end someone at 60-80 mph, and your airbags fire, and the impact goes through the frontend and hits the engine, and the k-member gives way cause of the notch you put in it, and the engine ends up in your lap... dont be surprised if im in the first in line saying "i told you so".

call me dumb. i really dont care. you think what you want. in the end, its what i know to be true that counts.

imho - cutting any part of the frame, skidplate or not - i almost guarantee you it will void your warranty as well as put you at risk in an accident. i doubt that gm, with all their "not endorsing modifying your engine" would REALLY start getting nervous if they found your k-member notched.

hell. all i did was swap heads/intakes and gm wont touch my car anymore (diagnostic or otherwise) - so you go ahead. you cut your k-members. you do whatever you want. the STS kit is a clever workaround. thats all it is. o yes, one more thing before i end this rant - on my car because of the fact i have RKSport headers, my exhaust y-pipe (it crosses in front of the oil pan on a 3.4L) hangs 1" BELOW the k-member. i have never rubbed it on anything - and ive gone over speed bumps at about 20 mph. the only time ive come close to injuring it, was because i hit a massive (1 foot deep) pothole in the road while i was doing about 75mph, which scraped it, and the rest of the underside of the car (i didnt see the pothole it was night out).

again. call me whatever you want. i hope you never get in a serious accident, because i really dont want to have to say "i told you so"

[BirdOfPrey01]

Also to say Tiago's kit doesnt flow well is pretty damn ignorant.

Tiago's kit has one controversial bend, if you dont like it, change it. Purchase some pipe goto the shop and have it rerouted.

Hell, if i were to develop a kit I would have charged $4000+ per setup. Not $2600.

Quit crying already, Tiago hasn't lied, everything he has told me has happened. Everything he said he sent out I did recieve.

[Teufel Hunden]

Originally posted by Russell:
im not a tiago worshiper. im a realist. i know how things are in the real world. i talk to tiago all the time and i ask him regularly how his biz is going. he tells me all the hardships he has to deal with. funny thing is, if people dont see results asap, they instantly assume that someone is ripping them off - instead of asking questions or inquring as to what is going on. tiago is a good person and im tired of seeing him break his back while people like you tear him down -- for you and all of you that think tiago is putting out a second rate product simply cause he isnt a multi-million dollar company or becaus ehes doing this BY HIMSELF WITH NO OTHER HELP out of his damn garage while holding down a full time job -- f--k you. straight up. thats all i have to say to all you people who are hating.

as for the whole "notch in the k-member" -- think of this. when you hit a pole or rear end someone at 60-80 mph, and your airbags fire, and the impact goes through the frontend and hits the engine, and the k-member gives way cause of the notch you put in it, and the engine ends up in your lap... dont be surprised if im in the first in line saying "i told you so".

call me dumb. i really dont care. you think what you want. in the end, its what i know to be true that counts.

imho - cutting any part of the frame, skidplate or not - i almost guarantee you it will void your warranty as well as put you at risk in an accident. i doubt that gm, with all their "not endorsing modifying your engine" would REALLY start getting nervous if they found your k-member notched.

hell. all i did was swap heads/intakes and gm wont touch my car anymore (diagnostic or otherwise) - so you go ahead. you cut your k-members. you do whatever you want. the STS kit is a clever workaround. thats all it is. o yes, one more thing before i end this rant - on my car because of the fact i have RKSport headers, my exhaust y-pipe (it crosses in front of the oil pan on a 3.4L) hangs 1" BELOW the k-member. i have never rubbed it on anything - and ive gone over speed bumps at about 20 mph. the only time ive come close to injuring it, was because i hit a massive (1 foot deep) pothole in the road while i was doing about 75mph, which scraped it, and the rest of the underside of the car (i didnt see the pothole it was night out).

again. call me whatever you want. i hope you never get in a serious accident, because i really dont want to have to say "i told you so"

There's a big difference between instant results and ONE FULL YEAR. If asking for a kit in less than amount of time is unrealistic, i don't think anyone would appreciate your definition of reality. I know things in the real world too.. i know that Tiago was able to complete other people's cars that weren't apart of the GP while the GP customers waited for their stuff, all the meanwhile being reassured by Tiago that he's doing "Everything possible" to get things done. He waited until the 1 year mark to finally decide and get off his *** and stop working on other people's cars and supposedly drive up to OK and see things for himself?! Not only is that poor decision making, it's him showing that he WASN'T doing everything possible to begin with!

What you KNOW to be true? I ask you again, have you ever seen how we made the notch? No you haven't. You have no idea what you're talking about, and are doing a poor job of making it up as you go along. If i hit a pole going 65-80 mph, IT WOULDN'T MATTER if there was a notch in the k-member or not... that's a serious enough accident to negate whatever you think might be wrong with the car. People with NO NOTCH in the K-member die in those types of accidents quite commonly, so for you to suggest i would die when someone else wouldn't is just you grabbing at straws to argue with me over something you have no clue about. You think i'm the only one to ever do this to a car? You're seriously mistaken if you think that. A notch here and there for simplicity and ground clearance is not unheard of and has been proven to be safe by countless other cars in many different applications and much more power to the wheels than i have. Go ahead and keep scraping the bottom of the barrel for this stuff..

Warranty?! WHAT WARRANTY?! it's a '98 with 90k miles on it! Anything i did to the k-member would have already been voided by all the OTHER work i've done to the car! great argument you presented there, genius. You think i gave any thought to a warranty that might potentially exist when i started modifying the car? NO!

Guess what, my Pace Setter y-pipe used to hang below the K-member too.. i never scraped it either.. so what's your point? Don't talk to me about ground clearance until you've lived in CO for a while... we're listed as having some of the worst roads in the country. **** you never thought would be an issue becomes a huge issue when you drive on the roads we do.

[black34v6]

(yawns)

[Teufel Hunden]

you totally owned me with that witty comeback. :rolleyes: If you've got nothing else you want to make up and exaggerate about my car, you can just say so ;)

[black34v6]

im not out to own anyone. i said what i needed to say. intelligent people will understand what i said, people like you will just continue to try to aggravate me and get me upset. eh - you do that, if it makes you happy - good for you!

[Teufel Hunden]

Originally posted by Russell:
im not out to own anyone. i said what i needed to say. intelligent people will understand what i said.

Intelligent people will be able to read your post and see you're posting bad examples in theoretical situations, with no real world experience to back anything up.

[black34v6]

Intelligent people will be able to read your post and see you're posting bad examples in theoretical situations, with no real world experience to back anything up.

thats funny. I thought thats what youve been doing all along with tiago's kit. Fact is you have no experience with the kit to say anything about it.

Also have you done a finite element analysis on the car to certify that the structural integrity of the car is not affected by cutting the k-member?

I seriously doubt that, so until its done I'll stick with option number two, Tiago's kit running under the k member. Loose 1 inch of ground clearance :rolleyes: and have a frame that was properly designed by GM engineers that did do all the proper engineering design on it, not some guy just claiming, hey Ive driven it like that and I lived! :rolleyes: [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

Creating something 1 of a kind is much easier then creating something that is mass producable with little to no "quirks".

as far as Im concerned this discussion is done.

[ January 12, 2005, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Russell ]

[Teufel Hunden]

Originally posted by Russell:
thats funny. I thought thats what youve been doing all along with tiago's kit. Fact is you have no experience with the kit to say anything about it.

Also have you done a finite element analysis on the car to certify that the structural integrity of the car is not affected by cutting the k-member?

I seriously doubt that, so until its done I'll stick with option number two, Tiago's kit running under the k member. Loose 1 inch of ground clearance :rolleyes: and have a frame that was properly designed by GM engineers that did do all the proper engineering design on it, not some guy just claiming, hey Ive driven it like that and I lived! :rolleyes: [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

Creating something 1 of a kind is much easier then creating something that is mass producable with little to no "quirks".

as far as Im concerned this discussion is done.

The information I base my arguments about the FFF kit's "situation" is based on the readily available info posted on this site. Tiago claimed ON THIS SITE that he was doing everything humanly possible to get the kits to the customers, then ON THIS SITE talked about how he has been finishing up other people's cars who had nothing to do with the GP. That's using the facts readily available to everyone.. yet people seem to think i'm making this up?

I have done plenty of checking on the rigidity of that member. Moreso than you assume. Not a finite element analysis, but even you can agree that's just you trying to sound like you're the expert here. Alot of outside sources had their hands on the idea of how to notch the member, and if months of driving daily and road course racing hasn't proven it to be sound, then nothing will in your eyes, so you might as well stop even talking to me about it. You're grabbing at straws and you know it. A finite element analysis? Please...

[GN-T66]

After having looked at FFF pictures, the pipe runs right under the k member. So unless it's only a one inch pipe, you lose alot more than one inch of clearance. It is also very close to the lower A-arm bushings if I remember correctly. I've seen turbo systems routed like that before, and the bushings eventually end up damaged.... anyway, back to STS now! :D

[GN-T66]

Originally posted by Russell:
Also have you done a finite element analysis on the car to certify that the structural integrity of the car is not affected by cutting the k-member?

[img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

Well, it wasnt cut with a torch, so a "finite element" analysis will reveal nothing. But perhaps there is another way to ensure strength. Perhaps he should have the car crash tested, perhaps the offset frontal 45mph impact test would work nicely. However, to have a good basis for comparison, you'd need to do the same test with an un-modified V6 car..... Your car should work nicely Russell :D

[nocutt]

Originally posted by GN-T66:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by nocutt:
If you are going to go as far as say "the STS kit is BAD" then bring proof...not opinion! I don't like the kit personally...because you have to go all the way to the back, bend down to say WOW!! (lol) nothing to do with performance...blah!blah!!blah!!! Most of you guys are 'nittpicking' this issues can easily be corrected...Umm run a test pipe...now the Cat.converter problem has also gone with the wind.... ;)

I've provided facts many times, but for some reason people never reply to what I say with any good counter arguement. These arent nittpicking issues, they are major design setbacks that cannot be corrected. It's as simple as that. STS problems dont go with the wind... sorry :rolleyes: It's real simple.. boost threshold is soo high, the car spends less time in boost per gear, and is slower. if you run a smaller exhaust housing to decrease spool time, you add a major restriction, and the car falls flat on it's face on the top end. Everything I have brought up has to do with performance. Except maybe the intermediate pipe being 3 inches off the ground... which is just a reliability issue (which, come to think of it, I have also brought up a few of those that you cant get around either)...... </font>[/QUOTE]GNT66
...Sorry you haven't brought facts but rather opinions, which are fine, but this is a very strong debate!?!?...a fact about the STS is EMPIRICAL DATA, which as of yet NO ONE has...you see my point?
When the said unit is designed and working it will suprise most of you...I say this because I have first HAND witness a similar setup...NOT BY STS...since everyone seems to think it is a new thing after slice bread...
Also GN you of all ppl should no...top end doesn't mean squat...when I had my GN it pooped before 5500RPMs...but from ~2200RPMs you will swear bin laden came back...lol!! and the GNs have a relatively small xhaust A/R...however that is what fools a lot of ppl...the power is from the wheels...say a TA49 ;) (too bad folks might not know what the heck I am talking about)...facts...not fiction...I digress!!

[GN-T66]

Originally posted by nocutt:
GNT66
...Sorry you haven't brought facts but rather opinions, which are fine, but this is a very strong debate!?!?...a fact about the STS is EMPIRICAL DATA, which as of yet NO ONE has...you see my point?
When the said unit is designed and working it will suprise most of you...I say this because I have first HAND witness a similar setup...NOT BY STS...since everyone seems to think it is a new thing after slice bread...
Also GN you of all ppl should no...top end doesn't mean squat...when I had my GN it pooped before 5500RPMs...but from ~2200RPMs you will swear bin laden came back...lol!! and the GNs have a relatively small xhaust A/R...however that is what fools a lot of ppl...the power is from the wheels...say a TA49 ;) (too bad folks might not know what the heck I am talking about)...facts...not fiction...I digress!!

To me and most people, top end does matter. And I dont mean speed, I mean the upper RPM band. I've felt the difference and when an exhaust housing becomes too small. When it falls flat on it's face in the upper rpm band it sucks. When you're on it hard going through the gears... guess what, you're not at 2200rpms... you're above 3000rpm all the time. So if you want your car to be quick it damn well better flow in the upper rpm band, where it is spending all of it's time. My GN still pulls nicely at and above 5500rpm btw ;)

As for first hand experience on the STS kit, I've ridden in an STS car, and it was even a V8 LS1 car, which can make much better use of such a design than a V6 car. I still wasnt impressed with it. If I could find the dyno graphs showing spool characteristics identical on an LS1 to that of a 3 liter supra motor, I would. And this was with identical head units. I'm sure you can see my points from those graphs ;)

[HAZ-Matt]

Originally posted by nocutt:
Sorry you haven't brought facts but rather opinions, which are fine, but this is a very strong debate!?!?...a fact about the STS is EMPIRICAL DATA, which as of yet NO ONE has...you see my point?

I'm with nocutt on this. Lot of theories and conjecture being thrown around. I'd rather wait and let the numbers speak for themselves (whether good or bad).

When the said unit is designed and working it will suprise most of you...I say this because I have first HAND witness a similar setup...NOT BY STS...since everyone seems to think it is a new thing after slice bread...

There is no doubt in my mind that the remote kit can provide gains. Do we come out ahead in the horespower/$ category? Can any Joe Shmoe install it? I think these are the best things the remote system has going for it. But I can't tell you how well or poorly the system will work. I can give an educated opinion, but not much else.

(Ok so I lied when I said I'd wait for the numbers to speak for themselves. I had to revise my post with my opinion)

In my opinion there has been way too much drama over the shortcomings of this kit. Obviously the rear of the car is not the optimum place to put the turbo (unless we are talking about a 911 ;) ). The compensatory smaller turbine is not as large of a restriction as some of you have made out either. It is precisely because you have lost exhaust pressure and volume that you select the smaller turbine, and since the exhaust gas is denser it requires less of space to flow out efficiently.

The water vapor collection was perhaps the weakest of all exaggerations. From reading this thread I am led to believe that a liter of water will be sitting in the turbo. That will not happen unless you were to stick a garden hose up the tailpipe, fill the turbo with some water, and then seal the tailpipe. If the tailpipe is not sealed, any collected water is in contact with the environment and will evaporate at a rate determined by ambient conditions.

As I see it the biggest problems are as follows:

1. As a pressure/temperature differential is what drives the turbine, placng the turbo in the rear of the car may limit the ability to maintain the gradient across the turbine. This will largely be caused by absorption of temperature by the catalytic converter and exhaust piping, transfer of heat through the pipe before the turbo to the environment, and perhaps leaking of exhaust gas. If it is still possible to maintain the same gradient across the turbo as with a front mount kit, this would not be a problem. However, the slight time it would take to pressurize the exhaust between the manifold and turbo will lead to lower (slightly) response time as compared to a front mount kit.

2. The length of the intake piping will result in a lag between spool and pressurization at the intake manifold as a large volume of gas will be brought up to pressure.

3. This is STS kit specific, but I dislike that there is no intercooler included. The STS claim that the long intake pipe will function as a heatsink is technically true, but misleading as I feel there is no way it could exchange heat with anywhere near the efficiency of an intercooler.

These are, as I said, what I think based on what I know. It may be that I am mistaken, but in any event I am reserving judgement until I see some hard data.

Also GN you of all ppl should no...top end doesn't mean squat...when I had my GN it pooped before 5500RPMs...but from ~2200RPMs you will swear bin laden came back...lol!! ...(too bad folks might not know what the heck I am talking about)

Grand Nationals, Bin Laden? What the hell are you talking about?
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[HAZ-Matt]

Originally posted by GN-T66:
If I could find the dyno graphs showing spool characteristics identical on an LS1 to that of a 3 liter supra motor, I would.

Can you explain how to determine spool from a dyno?