forced induction build engine 3800

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

Well, iv been talkin with the GN guys lately and some guys with 3800 series II turbocharged engines. and they've been telling me that the stock L36 block is plenty strong and even has advantages over the LC2. Butt he internals must be redone or your 3800 will not last long.

the cast iron pistons and weaker rods in the stock L36 will not hold very long if you plan to run boost higher than 8 psi.

The best thing to do when rebuilding the engine would be to get some good 8.5:1 compression pistons whether its the L67 or others. Rods must be heavy duty. Some good strong bolts would be recommended too.

ARP Head stud kit, ARP rod bolts, and some good bearings.

Head gaskest is very strong the only gaskest check the intake/oil gaskests. there should be some information on how to fix any problems that may occour. GM did have some problems with these.

Get an L67 CrankShaft, this is important if you are going to be pushing some serious PSI. the L67 and L36 crank shafts are both cost iron but... the L67 is machine a bit differently. Goto a machine shop to ge tit balanced.

the 1.6 ratio roller rocker arms should be fine stock.

Cams should be selected carefully depening on if you port your heads. ask a professional about the correct cam for your application. they should be able to match you for what you need.

Stock oil pump is fine. make sure its clean

No need for MSD unless you are running a bogus setup. if you engine is built properly to take a massive beating as it will with 14+ psi you wont need a MSD. Cold Sparkplugs and good wires is all you need. Crane Fire Wire is a good choice.

Other than that, basic maitanence, check belts, rocker arms, timing chain. anything of concern. once you build a block like this it will be very hard to destroy boosting 18+ psi will be nuthing to worry about.

You do not need to port your heads an intake if you dont want but beaware, It is an open option and it will help alot to increase air flow, you may gt huge gains. but only if you are serious. You must select a custom cam to match your ported heads. Porting can cause more trouble than good if it is not done with serious thinking and good practice.
I would recommend a specialist to help you with this.

[ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: Swift_3800_F-Body ]</p>

[Arctc Wolf]

we have hypereutic pistons, which suck for boost like u said. If ur gonna tear apart the block, get the pistons coated w/ anti-friction coating on the skirts and high-temp coating on the tops, combustion chamber, and valve faces. this will distribute the heat evenly in the cylinder as well as keep the heat inside the cylinder instead on in the engine block, inatke manifold, ect.

Depending on the max boost u wanna run, u set compression accordingly. if ur gonna stick w/ 15 psi or less, 9.0:1 will do fine. ATI has a chart of how much boost an engine can take at a certain compression and type of FI used.

MSD should be used just to make sure every bit of that air/fuel mixture is burned, and so that u can gap ur plugs bigger to ensure this, w/o having to worry about misfires. the more boost u run, the more likely ur gonna wanna have the extra safety of the MSD. low boost, it prolly isn't needed.

porting & polishing will wake up any turbo system, and actually make it produce less boost, since the removal of the material will open up a larger area for the air to fit into, causing the pressure to drop. if u have a boost sensitive wastegate, then it will automatically keep the valve closed a little longer to make full boost, and help make even more power.

usually, the more the heads flow, the higher the lift u can use on ur cam grind. this helps get max airflow into the cylinder while allowing u 2 mess w/ duration and lobe separation specs to fine tune ur powerband, since duration should be determined by displacement per cylinder and Lobe separation be determined by what area of the powerband u want ur power to be made at.

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

very well put, artic [img]smile.gif[/img]

[slomaro]

thank you captin obvious


if anyone is thinking of boosting their motor and they dont know this already they shouldnt be doing it to begin with and hrmm 8 psi on stock internals is weak hrmmm radcat ran 14 with race gas i am sure but still his pistons held they arnt super weak as long as you control the one thing that will break them the fastest DETONATION

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

slomaro, [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] thats like saying you put a 75 shot of nitrous and your engine held up. sure it did today, but will it tommorrow? for you do another 75 shot or next week when you do like 3 or 4 or 5 shots in a week? you think you engine will last long? hell no, its not like he's doing boosting 14 psi all day. its a once in a while thing, and sooner or later his pistons will get weak, rods will get weak and one will break its just a fact. im sure he can control spark and fuel but thats the "ghetto" way. look what happens to all the ricers when they put turbos and nitrous on there engines? radcat is just testing to see how far he can push it. i doubt he is running 14 psi on stock internals all day. just like nitrous.
do you think its safe actually constantly give a 50 shot of nitrous everyother day?, well guess what you are doing when you turbocharge an engine? you are putting stress on the internals everytime your turbo spools, you are forcing air into your engine. its kind of like making your engine think it has more displacement than it really does. that is all forced induction is and an engine that is not properly built will not last with constant boost. its not that bad. all you should do it get some l67 pistons and some very good rods and bolts and your set to run 8-10 psi all day long. i dont know if some of you understand that 5-7 psi is considered "low"
8-12 psi is considered in the "border line medium to high" boost level anything past 12 psi is considered high boost. anything past 12 psi and you should be running mid to low 13's, DSM's, grand prix's, 12+ psi will get you into 13's
no doubt.

the L36's pistons are not weak as to they will break or they are twigs, im saying they are weak for boost, and id never use them. personally i think its a waste of money if you spend 3-4 grand for a retail or marketed turbo kit or 1500-2500 for a custom turbo kit and you dont rebuild your engine to last whats the point? if you honestily think your going to run 14 psi everyday you might as well make 300 shot of nitrous tommorrow so your engine blows now and not someone in another city or when you racing that other guy that just beat you. i think its funny, boosting 8 psi? why dont you just buy a z28 if you're going to just go with low boost? even with 8-9 psi on a v6 your car wont be faster than a LS1 you will probably hang with LT1 z28's, and big deal? everyone hangs with stock z28 LT1's. you might as well just got a LT1. you can listen to dyno numbers all day, if you dont get your power to the ground before the other person does your car failed. simple as that. if you have a 8 psi turbocharged 3800 engine and the other guy has a 8 psi turbocharged 4 banger thats lighter and he spools faster and makes more power to the ground quickly, you will be following. iv seen 220 hp tubocharged cars destroy 300+ hp beasts like they werent even trying and believe me they were breathing hard. so dont sit there and believe dyno numbers. and trust me you think racing dsm's and mustangs are hard now stock? wait till you race your first evo or ls1 corvette. or grand national, or high boosted wrx, or high boosted grand prix, most fo you guys havent seen fast here. people play with your cars. that ls1 camaro rolls up to you and he toys with you at half throttle while you got it punched and you think you gain on him for a second then he gains on you more and more slowly with half throttle and you claim you just hung 2 cars lengths behind a ls1 or dsm when really if he punched it your a$$ would have no chance of catching up and he would disapear into the night or just out of your site. [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img] now do you really think 8 psi is going to hang with him? who the hell are you kids racing? the chineese kid next door with a 14 second civic that beats you everyday to school and then you get laughed at or what? so you want revenge you spend 4 grand to get your car down to 14 seconds just to hang with him? or maybe beat him a car length? i mean c-mon, why put all the work into your car just to cut off one lowsy second? you could fix your car up for alot less, sell the car for a good overprice and get a better car with the money you just saved.

[Shirl]

that ls1 camaro rolls up to you and he toys with you at half throttle while you got it

Yeah, my car loves eating LS1's. They are YUMMY [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img] And to be honest, that motor feels very similar to a blown 3.8 in the way it builds power to the red line. I drove a stock LS1 Vette (auto). I liked my car better. LT1's, are not a match anymore unless they are HIGHLY modified. I don't understand you're reasoning for hanging in the forced induction forum only to give negative advice to some of the people in here who have dreams to modify their cars and make them fast. So what if it's "only a 6". People have to start somewhere. Yeah, anyone can go out and buy an 8 cylinder or 10 cylinder car. Big deal. It looks like you have that "dream" too.. 11's in your sig? Exactly how do you expect to run 11's when you are not interested in forced induction or nitrous?? Sorry, but by the time you "build the motor up", you will be spending as much (or close to) on pistons, rods, porting, cam, springs, rockers, crank, ect ect, what you would've spent for a bolt-on blower and still make about the same amount of power.

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Shirl ]</p>

[nocutt]

I really don't feel like responding to this thread because it is getting nowehere!?!?

Swift_3800_F-Body,
I am sorry dude, I don't think you really understand the intricacies of F.I. Also I don't think you understand the 3800 L36 or L67 for that matter...you give me forged rods and pistons...I will show you how to turn them into molten slugs...it is a universal rule across all the gearhead forums. You run great risk when your vehicle is out of the "performance tune"...literally! be it naturally aspirated or unatural aspiration...also forged or not, when you add 50%+ into an engine be it an L67, 2jz-gte, LS1, Sr20det, L36, Lc2.,.,. whatever!! you are shortening the life of the recepient engine, yes you can delay the inevitable by using available engine/heat management...but it's time will still come, an engine is still bounded by its physics!! Now really what is your point!?!?
The compromise? We all no the compromise, that is why there is that thing called choice...you start modding, then you are ready to accept the downfalls, the downtime and the good times...it is called trial and tribulation...you are here saying what? the fact that one person runs '220 hp' and beat a person running '300 +hp'...please, "Variables!" I am sure you have heard of it...or the this one: "there is always somebody faster and he is probably the one writing your check"!

For what it is worth...understand certain dynamics before denoucing another...I have ran 11psi on my car, plus the fact that it is FWD makes it HELL to get traction...5yrs!! I had to cut back boost because I am honestly a chicken as a driver!! This might not excite you but everything in the engine remained stock...it is already mentioned above and I will do it again...you remove detonation from the equation for livable power and you can basically go wherever...now the durability and strength of the bottom end might come to question...and in my OWN honest opinion no one has reached it yet...all it is right now is speculations mixed with good 'ol logic, which is good...this way folks can respect the power!!

[camaro_speedemon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Swift_3800_F-Body:
and you claim you just hung 2 cars lengths behind a ls1 or dsm when really if he punched it your a$$ would have no chance of catching up and he would disapear into the night or just out of your site. <hr></blockquote>

Anything is possible, I have personally OWNED an LS1 Z28 off the line, all the way to the top of second. You wanna know why? HE COULDN'T LAUNCH. He was roasting his tires while I got about 2-3 cars on him. Obviously he toasted me in third, but that's beside the point, if it would have been a 1/4 race, he would have beaten me by maybe .5. I've seen an LT1 run 15's because of a bad driver. Oh yea, and for a DSMs,yea they're fast, but they are SH*T for quality! I'll be laughing my azz off after they blow up their tranny. A very well known problem with them.

Look at Shirl, shes in the 12's boosting AND spraying. Increased performance means decreased engine life in ANY car. And running about 8PSI with a properly tuned car should allow you to be in the high 14's, that's not really far behind the LS1s, and by no means will they leave you "in the night".

BTW there are quite a few stock L36's running with the crappy powerdyne at about 8PSI and still are running strong. And that's non intercooled boost, which is not really a good thing to do to an engine.

[Lord_Verminaard]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by camaro_speedemon:


Oh yea, and for a DSMs,yea they're fast, but they are SH*T for quality! I'll be laughing my azz off after they blow up their tranny. A very well known problem with them.

<hr></blockquote>

Funny you mention that- I saw a TSI AWD Talon at the track one night, he had a helmet and raicing suit and everything, and on his first run, reved WAY up at the tree and when he dropped it, CRASH! Millions of what looked like metal marbles exploded out of the bottom of the car in about a 20 foot circle. Funniest thing I have ever seen! I bet he felt like a real [img]graemlins/dunce.gif[/img]

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49

[Shirl]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

Well just the other day i went to my local auto parts store and i picked up a GM high performence magazine and the guy points to the trans am on the cover and says "hey want me to look up that engine for you?" i said sure and he looked it up, $2200 w/ core $2600 without core. I then told him to look up the Buick 3.8 Type T engine, he looked it up. $1300 with core $1600 without

i then asked him about a swap into a 96 camaro, he told me, the LS1 would be a easy 3-4 days, he said the Buick 3.8 would not be hard just more labor.

3800 v6 is a good engine but its just too expensive to rebuild. too much work, the engine is not made to be boosted.

camarospeeddemon, im sorry to inform you but the guy was probably messing with you. you never had him. thats the fun part about having a LS1 or any fast car, you tell the guy next to you to just go and wait a couple seconds, then you launch or you just sit and roast the tires and when you make traction you take off hard. its pretty embarassing when you have a lead by that much and he catches up in a few seconds. you actually think
he owned him? hahahaha wow you are a ricer. i doubt he was having trouble with traction, he was probably just roasting the tires for show. hell, id do it to just to show off.

nocutt i understand any forced induction will cut the life from your engine but properly built, gives more of a cusion. you cannot just look at pistons and rods. i may exaggerate
a bit but maybe thats because i cannot find much information on the L36, only the L67 which seems to be the favorite choice of most people with swapping engines but because of cleareance the top will not fit into our cars. i heard it was possible to put the bottom end into our cars than put L36 heads and intake on the L67 bottom.
also "Vice versa L67 topend on L36 bottom end too" although i cannot confirm this.

you could call my quest for power lost at the moment. im sure whichever route i take i will be happy whether its buick turbo, LS1 or rebuild 3800

i just want to end up with power greater than the LS1 if not the LS1 itself.

also weight and horsepower are interchangeable, traction is the obstacle, is there any sections on the site the concern weight reduction? we are afterall dealing with the 3800 v6, losing an extra 100-300 pounds on our cars should be a good start if your looking for accelleration.

[Morgan]

If I can interject a quick comment about ignitions-- I still use the factory ignition and wires with no problems at 29 psi on good gas; the plugs are R42TSs at .032 gap.

HTH,
Morgan

[ August 13, 2003: Message edited by: Morgan ]</p>

[12secdream]

i find this thread ****in retarded. i've smoked so many ls1's. you goota get some balls and tear it up. i ran 12's spinning out of the hole like crazy and with massive KR. you just gotta know what you are doing and have some money. these cars can make some serious hp; you just gotta know what your are doing

and yes i have torn up z28's all motor with no problem [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]

[1998silverbird]

Its funny how I see so many gn's running 10's and yet people tell me that its worthless to build a V6?? The Buick 3.8 is a great motor and has so much potential.. Oh yeah LS1's Street treats if they are stock!! [img]graemlins/fluffy.gif[/img]

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> If I can interject a quick comment about ignitions-- I still use the factory ignition and wires with no problems at 29 psi on good gas; the plugs are R42TSs at .032 gap.
HTH,
Morgan

[ August 13, 2003: Message edited by: Morgan ]
<hr></blockquote>

yes morgan many people disagree with me and you on this one. you dont need to upgrade your ignition if you plan to run boost. the only time you should really have to upgrade your ignition is when you are doing something you are not really supposed to do. - "run boost on weaker engine"

and i cant agree with you more (1998silverbird)
intenseracing ran a 10 second slip with with a Turbo 3800 v6 18-19 psi with a FWD Grand Prix

Of course they did many modifications and rebuilt the whole engine down to the block. im sure one of us could do a simple rebuild on a 3800 to run close to 18 psi to run 11's or low 12's easily after all we do have rwd and with good gears and torque converter we could we could hit some decent 60' times