A thought about "turbo fever"

[imported_admin]

For the past year it seems like this forum has been in the grip of what I call "turbo fever". A bunch of turbo setups seemed to come out of nowhere and all of a sudden everyone thinks turbos are a million times better than superchargers.

Let me point out that there a turbo is not necessarily "better" than a supercharger. It all depends on setup. Some turbo setups are faster than some supercharger setups, other supercharger setups are faster than other turbo setups.

From what I have seen, perhaps because there is no major turbo manufacturer that endorses these kits, turbo owners tend to be more gung-ho and have more of a backyard garage attitude than supercharger owners. Turbo owners seem to throw everything together, hit the track, pull a 14.2, and call it a "shakedown" run saying they'll do better once they're fully tuned. Supercharger owners, on the other hand, seem to prefer to wait until all the bugs are worked out--THEN hit the track and blow people's doors off.

My personal take on this is, why bother posting a time if its in the 14's? What does "shakedown" run mean? My "shakedown" runs were three years ago and resulted in engine fires halfway down the track... yet I still pulled 13's. Did I go publishing these times and bragging about them? Hardly. I don't believe a time is valid until the setup is complete. I don't personally (but this is just me) believe a timeslip or dyno figure should be publicized until the bugs are worked out.

As an example, at SLP Day in Englishtown this past fall, SLP had two heavily modified Cobras that ran 14.2 as a best. There was a lot of work that still needed to be done on these cars. Those 14.2 ET's are invalid, because these cars will probably be pushing 11's when their bugs are worked out. However, F-Body owners saw these times and laughed at Ford in general. The comment "modified Cobras run slower than a stock LS1" was made. Is this true? No.

I am looking forward to this spring and summer racing season. I think 2004 will be a damn good year for V6 F-Bodies. We will have at least two Procharger owners pull some valid times (Path and myself), several of the Mach Performance ATI owners should get some decent runs in, the Powerdyne owners with their non-slipping-belts should see some good times, and turbos will finally get their "best" runs in--instead of pulling a crappy time and calling it a "shakedown". Until then, people need to remember that a car's performance is all in its setup. Saying a turbo is faster than a supercharger for some obscure technical reason is like saying a Camaro is faster than a Firebird because its lack of pop-up headlights results in lower weight.

[ February 22, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Stefan ]

[Bluebird]

Originally posted by Stefan:
Turbo owners seem to throw everything together, hit the track, pull a 14.2, and call it a "shakedown" run saying they'll do better once they're fully tuned. Supercharger owners, on the other hand, seem to prefer to wait until all the bugs are worked out--THEN hit the track and blow people's doors off.

My personal take on this is, why bother posting a time if its in the 14's? What does "shakedown" run mean? My "shakedown" runs were three years ago and resulted in engine fires halfway down the track... yet I still pulled 13's.

Saying a turbo is faster than a supercharger for some obscure technical reason is like saying a Camaro is faster than a Firebird because its lack of pop-up headlights results in lower weight.

[img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

A turbo has lag, and a supercharger has parasitic loss.

(Did I spell that right?) [img]graemlins/twak.gif[/img]

[Ender2664]

Well depending on the car a turbocharger could make more power than a supercharger or visa versa. However as it seems why you are talking about a v6fbody, if you are looking for a low cost bolt on to make high horsepower with, you are looking for a turbo. Lets face it, right now a turbo kit is going to cost way less than a supercharger, and a turbo charger, in my opinion is easier to tune with than a supercharger. Turning down the boost is a matter of a button not a pully. Plus you also need to decied what kind of raceing/what you are building the car for. If it is just a street toy that you are going to run you friends with, a turbo kit (as of now) is the right choice. It is much more affordable and turbos are easier to upgrade and mess around with. Not to mention the fact that shane is making killer times. You just need to remember that 7psi isnt 7psi isnt 7psi. 7psi will make completely different numbers on a turbo set up than it will on a supercharger, hell 7psi will even make a tone different hp on the same car on a turbo set up. Case and point, my buddy has a eclipse with the 4g63 and he was running 20psi making 280whp, he changed a couple of things and changed the turbo, and slapped down 340whp. People need to not just look at dyno numbers and track times, they need to understand what is behind them and if the car is fast, what makes it fast, and if the car isnt why it is like that. This way you can allways know what to exspect from what you are getting, and how to upgrade it.

[Tiago]

correct designed turbos ALWAYS put down more rwhp/rwtq then superchargers, ALWAYS have a broader area under the curve for better times/mph, they give the owners MUCH mroe flexibility for tuning at whatever level they desire. This is what causes the "turbo fever".


There is only one real "kit " out there, mine.
my runs aren't shake down but I tend to have problems when I run, my car isn't completely built. Last time the clutch didn't hold. My only successfull runs have been in street trim at 7 psi, 13.5 at 106 with 2.2 60 fts. When I tried to prep the car up with slicks, race gas and up the boost then I had problems but it is expected sincee car really isn't setup for it all. Slowly coming around though. Even so I dont see any other 3.4s around that run that or dyno what I do. Or even 3.8s for that matter heh.

Shane's turbo setup is a perfect example of a turbo setup running runing on a properly setup car. No SC out there can match his times/mph with the measily 7 psi he was running on the completely stock 3.8. Not even you.

Unfortunately all the peopel that have my kit at this point were 5 speed people with comepltely stock cars which have had to slowly upgrade their drivetrains/suspentions to handle the power. Shane already had all this done. Hopefully when the GP kits go out alot of the guuys will report back their results and how their setup works. I know a couple of them have supplementary mods to back up the power. Thats what it all comes down to, having the car up to par with he motor.

[imported_admin]

Originally posted by Tiago:
correct designed turbos ALWAYS put down more rwhp/rwtq then superchargers, ALWAYS have a broader area under the curve for better times/mph, they give the owners MUCH mroe flexibility for tuning at whatever level they desire.

Of course. You're right. Supercharger owners are fools. Turbos are infinitely superior. Right. :rolleyes:

This is exactly the kind of blanket statement I was referring to...

[Justin Kirkham]

For me, I look to where a car needs power. Our f-bodies have good torque down low, but everyone knows that in the upper RPM's we are relative, relative to down low. For this reason, I have always wanted to do a turbo. The turbo shines in the upper RPM's, where I think the 3800 II is weak, while the supercharger adds onto the lower end, creating a lopsided power graph, in my opinion.

It is for this same reason that I would do a supercharger with an import. They are weak below 3000-rpm, but are strong above the 6000-rpm mark. I am a fanatic about balance, though...

-Justin

[Shirl]

I agree with Stefan on this one.. the point he's making is that people with blowers in general are making statements about "shakedown runs" which don't mean a damn thing. Then they hypothesize about how they are going to run so much faster once the bugs are worked out. Most of the time, we don't hear from these people again. Whether a turbo is better on these cars, (IMO) still remains to be seen. One person ran in the twelves with 7 or 8psi(intercooled)...what other work has been done to the car? I can assure you that NO 4th gen 3.8 FBody is running in the 12's without SIGNIFICANT work (and money) put into it. I think that, in itself, is misleading to a lot of the younger members who think if they slap a turbo on..their car will automatically run 12's. Plus, speaking of money...many people are using "spare motors" or have one on hand in case disaster strikes. My statement is in no way intended to put anyone or anyone's set-up down. Just thought I'd point a couple things out.

[12secondv6]

Nitrous OWNZ all [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Shirl]

Quiet you! [img]graemlins/slap.gif[/img] I know that!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] But they don't... [img]graemlins/bowdown.gif[/img] :D

[12secondv6]

Originally posted by Shirl:
Quiet you! [img]graemlins/slap.gif[/img] I know that!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] But they don't... [img]graemlins/bowdown.gif[/img] :D

:D

[Tiago]

hey there are only 2 people running turbos and trying to get ETs at the moment, how are tehre gonna be more then one person saying htey ran this or that.

Matter of time before there are more turbo peeps out there to put out a more average result if that is what youa re after.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

umm i only got the turbo after i did extesive research on both, yes the GP was great too, but like was already said

after a turbo spools up its boost stay there all the way to the red line

SC the boost MAY drop off at the top end some, and you have the stupid belt to play with. also a SC from what i could dig up take more HP to make HP,

well i was thinking v6 taking more to make as much with the SC, what if i could add what the SC is taking to make HP to my motor? \
thats were the turbo comes in, it only causes back presure and that does not rob as much HP. the moreair the turbo shoves in the more exuast it has to spin it. IMO it helps it self, were as the SC can only be spin as fast as the motor

so with the biuld up im doing and the new 7200 RPM limiter on my motor, i didn't want the SC to fall off the top end.

IMO if you could have both, and make it work, that would be the best way, but that would take $$$ and a few copy rights later you might have something......

[Speed]

Well, the "shake down runs" are simply the result of what the prototype car had to offer at the time we ran. The time were listed because people wanted to know what we had done so far. You seem to portray supercharger owners as being "more refined" but it's the turbo guys who are out there posting the results, each step of the way, so people can see the evolution and not just the final result. As a kit designer, this allows my customers to be well educated on what does and does not work. The 3.8 development is slower because our prototyper is busy with school and life and unfortunately lives over an hour away from me. Tweeking time is rare and valueable. He doesn't have unlimited funds to satisfy the curiousities of everyone wanting something more than a shake down pass and we can't finance clutch replacements while still smoking the competitions prices. Nature of the beast but these things take time. This also allows us to "refine" our kits further by studying the results and looking for room to improve.

My LT1 kit has made more horsepower than any supercharger kit on the market with a stock internals and no tuning engine. 554/578 was the best horsepower. I don't remember this horsepower on the best torque run but the torque was 629. Yup, stock internals, stock tuning. My kit also propelled the car to ove 128 miles per hour in the 1/4. Again, stock internals, stock tuning.

The only two cars supercharged V6s I've seen post up some numbers is Shirl's car which is sponsered atleast to some degree buy a Chevy dealership and Pathogen which has a built to boost engine in it's bay.

I'm not sure what endorsed by a major manufacturer is supposed to mean. Garrett is part of a multi-billion dollar a year company. Most huge companies like that don't take the time to endorse kit builders. Nature of the beast unfortunately and I've never taken the time to ask. But what difference does that make anyway? Our product warenties match those in the business and are backed by people who are actually out here, taking the time to talk to the people who will ultimatley be using the kit. I don't see Vortech, Procharger, or any of the others on here.

Bottom line, we don't care if someone thinks the supercharger kits are better. If you want a CSC, then run one and more power too you. I think it's awesome to finally see the heat being turned up in the previously under recognized V6 f-body market. But our goal is to have the turbo cars across the line first and that again, is the nature of the beast.

[ February 22, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Speed ]

[Bluebird]

Originally posted by Tiago:
Matter of time before there are more turbo peeps out there to put out a more average result if that is what youa re after.

When/IF those other people show up, the will label their 14 second timeslip as a shakedown run, with so many other problems that just came up.

Originally posted by Shirl:
Most of the time, we don't hear from these people again. One person ran in the twelves with 7 or 8psi(intercooled)...what other work has been done to the car? I can assure you that NO 4th gen 3.8 FBody is running in the 12's without SIGNIFICANT work (and money) put into
it.

Exactly! [img]graemlins/rock.gif[/img]

[Drone51]

the turbo owners may be posting results but NO ONE from the fff camp has put down ANY good numbers. Not even matt (tracks may not be open for him but still yall have no good times)

stefan is also refering to the other 2 guys that basicly copyed fff setup while not completly the same they still havnt broken 14's them selfs.


Do I think their cars are faster then that, yes. But they still havnt run any better since then. Shane is the only one to run a good time period. Yes hes an auto yes that makes it easyer, but if you have a manual and you just slap a turbo on and think your m5 is gonna hold for long your dumb, you should atleast have it in the plans to upgrade your cluch


also pathagens car is not built for boost its a stock motor


arnt cluches a couple hundred bucks, arnt yall gonna make a couple couple thousand easy, why cant yall help your prototype car out with a cluch so yall can run some numbers and to give him back somehting for being the prototype car. If yall did that and put down numbers then your kit might would impress me.