A thought about "turbo fever"

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Yes hes an auto yes that makes it easyer, but if you have a manual and you just slap a turbo on and think your m5 is gonna hold for long your dumb

i know im really stupid, but i just don't have the money for a $3000 tranny right now, next year. nor can i even find one

[Speed]

Originally posted by Shirl:
I agree with Stefan on this one.. the point he's making is that people with blowers in general are making statements about "shakedown runs" which don't mean a damn thing. Then they hypothesize about how they are going to run so much faster once the bugs are worked out.

IMO, that's par for the course. Many people give updates to their mods as they progress. I don't think that is a fault. I believe it's a benefit to the community. I also don't see the harm in speculating what correcting a bug or tweeking something differently will cause.

Originally posted by Shirl:
Most of the time, we don't hear from these people again.

Not sure if this refers to me but I'm still here. I don't participate as much as I would like in all the different forums represents cars we are building kits for but I try to make myself available. Tiago is here a lot and knows this kit inside and out.

Originally posted by Shirl:
Whether a turbo is better on these cars, (IMO) still remains to be seen. One person ran in the twelves with 7 or 8psi(intercooled)...what other work has been done to the car?

Not sure on this one. It wasn't one of our cars. When we bust into the 12s, everyone will already know what our car is from threads detailing buildups and "shake down runs".

Originally posted by Shirl:
I can assure you that NO 4th gen 3.8 FBody is running in the 12's without SIGNIFICANT work (and money) put into it.

I disagree. I do so because I've been told the same thing on so many other projects only to prove the folks argueing that fact wrong. However, it remains to be seen how hard you have to push the car. Also, please forgive me if I remember this wrong, but isn't the setup you ran a high 11 with a stock internals engine with a supercharger and nitrous?

Originally posted by Shirl:
I think that, in itself, is misleading to a lot of the younger members who think if they slap a turbo on..their car will automatically run 12's.

I haven't seen anyone leading anybody to believe that. Our assumptions and quotes are based on our own tests and evaluations. Even if we do run an exceptional number, it's the kit buyers choice and responsibility to decide if they want to push their car that hard. As with all our kits, we give everyone a ton of info resulting from our testing to do with as they please.

Originally posted by Shirl:
Plus, speaking of money...many people are using "spare motors" or have one on hand in case disaster strikes. My statement is in no way intended to put anyone or anyone's set-up down. Just thought I'd point a couple things out.

I have a series II in my garage. It was originally intended for a turbo buildup to be installed in my Fiero. I decided to install a turbocharged northstar instead. It's in peices and is a long way from being reassembled. Jesse is interested in using this engine in his car one day. Beyond that, we don't have a rack of series IIs we are going through to see what happens.

I'm glad you aren't slamming anyone and I enjoy the opportunity to address points and concerns. Thanks!

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

i got Tiago's kit and he has been more then helpful with everything i have asked. even things that have nothing to do with his kit in the frist place. trust me i'v asked him at least 4000000000 "?"s in the past 2 months im suprised he hasn't changed his AIM name yet.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Drone51:
the turbo owners may be posting results but NO ONE from the fff camp has put down ANY good numbers. Not even matt (tracks may not be open for him but still yall have no good times)

Hmmm, that's strange because I remmeber our prototype car putting down higher numbers untuned than the CSC kit put down with tuning. Maybe that was on the Grand Prix kit, or maybe not.

Originally posted by Drone51:
stefan is also refering to the other 2 guys that basicly copyed fff setup while not completly the same they still havnt broken 14's them selfs.

I can't vouch for those who have copied the kit and you can't use those to compare either.

Originally posted by Drone51:
Do I think their cars are faster then that, yes. But they still havnt run any better since then. Shane is the only one to run a good time period. Yes hes an auto yes that makes it easyer, but if you have a manual and you just slap a turbo on and think your m5 is gonna hold for long your dumb, you should atleast have it in the plans to upgrade your cluch

I agree that a clutch upgrade is recommended on 5 speed cars but with a turbo, you can keep the boost down, still get great performance while you are waiting to get a clutch. Then you can spend the 5 seconds it takes to turn the boost up with the supplied boost controller and there you go. Attacking the clutch and transmission in a thread designed to attack our kit is a little unfair anyway. If the tranny won't hold our turbo kit even at low boost, what makes you think it will work better with nitrous, a supercharger, or an NA motor making the same power? The clutches lack of holding power isn't a problem isolated to this kit.

Originally posted by Drone51:
also pathagens car is not built for boost its a stock motor

Pathogens car is running an L67 bottom end last time I read his website more than a year ago. The L67 bottom end was designed by GM for a boosted Series II.

Originally posted by Drone51:
arnt cluches a couple hundred bucks, arnt yall gonna make a couple couple thousand easy, why cant yall help your prototype car out with a cluch so yall can run some numbers and to give him back somehting for being the prototype car. If yall did that and put down numbers then your kit might would impress me.

That's just it, we aren't making a couple thousand dollars easy. Our kits are priced so agressively because we want to offer the best bang for the buck and get our name out there. We are doing that in every market. The low price and thus low profit is designed to sell a bunch of kits while making everyone aware of our products. That is just good marketing in my opinion and it serves the community well.

For my LS1 and LT1 kits, I bought the cars myself to develop the kits on. I did that because to be quite honest, I think I will sell a lot more kits for the LT1 cars and the LS1 cars and I will see a bigger return on my investment. There for it's is easier to justify the expenses.

The prototype car we are using belongs to a friend who wanted to be the first with our kit. It's hard to argue with those numbers on what will comparitively be a low production kit. But you sacrifice car availablity in return. Futher, the kit is getting the same development time and attention to detail as the higher volume kits are but it takes longer to do that. Those who bought into our inital GP will benefit from our further testing and tuning as well.

[98GREENGLOW]

I am impressed with the times these cars are running. If your running mid 15's and the turbo takes you down to low 14's, that is significant to me. But yea the (shake down run thing is kinda gay) if that were the case every run Ive ever done has been a shakedown run cas Im constantly fixing/planning/working on stuff.

But it really just depends on how everything is set up. Take Shril for example. DO YOU REALLY THIMK HER 11 SEC CAR WOULD STILL RUN A 13.9 WITHOUT THE 100 SHOT???? That hundred shot is good , but not 2 seconds worth good. If shirl had an intercooler with her 6 pounds of boost shed probaly be close to the 12's herself.

So what then.....The powerdyne is the sh**....NO, she just had everything put together very nicely. Thats the way I feel abut it right now.

It's a very close race. Youve got some turbos runnin 14's and then you got some powerdynes running 14's. You got one turbo in the 12's and another in the 13's (both intercooled) you got one powerdyne in the 11's and another in the 12's (non intercooler but using nos as a chiller) take away the nos and those two same powerdynes would probaly be in the 12's and 13's. I know Ironman pulled 280 somthing rwhp on his last dyno so thats defiently good for a 13 second run.

I dont think one is any better than the other. It just depends on setup. Now if I were planning to build my engine and be one day running 20 pounds of boost I would go turbo all the way. I dont know.... It just seems like holding that kind of boost on a supercharger pully would be insanely hard.

[Shirl]

Speed, in no way was any of this directed toward you. I don't even know who you are. Could you please identify yourself? My statements are very general and to the point. I fully understand the reasoning behind practice "shakedown" runs but the point is...it gets old. If I were to post every "shakedown" run I ever did before getting my car running properly, people would get tired of hearing the excuses. And,if anyone knows about the cost of speed, it's me. It is costly to build these cars up. A word of caution to everyone is: read between the LINES. If something is not going correctly then there is a PROBLEM. This is similar to what the magazines do: they sugarcoat a product in an article and say "there was this problem", but once it was fixed "the car ran really great!" This is BS. It is a typical tactic to get readers to buy the product even though there could be glitches in it. Sorry Speed, but the members need to see kits that are proven whether it is a supercharger or turbo. That is just reality.

[Tiago]

Originally posted by 98GREENGLOW:
Ironman pulled 280 somthing rwhp on his last dyno so thats defiently good for a 13 second run.

he has a cam as well though. THose are not tipical results.

jsut like saying any 3.4 out there will run like my car does. Not true, my heads/intake really woke up the car a stock headed 3.4 is prolly a good second/10mph behind mine.

[imported_admin]

Disclaimer: this is an educated debate, not a flame fest. [img]smile.gif[/img] But given the flak that turbo owners have been giving supercharger owners over the past year, I thought this thread was necessary to set the record straight. My point is, turbos do not "own" superchargers. Since when have SUPERCHARGED cars been "owned" by anything???

Originally posted by Tiago:
Unfortunately all the peopel that have my kit at this point were 5 speed people with comepltely stock cars which have had to slowly upgrade their drivetrains/suspentions to handle the power. Shane already had all this done.

Thats what it all comes down to, having the car up to par with he motor.

Apples to oranges. "The turbo kits are so strong that no one has a car that can keep up with it. Once they build up their drivetrains and rear suspensions they'll be running 12's to 11's."

I can say that about my setup too. My setup was designed for 15-18 psi of boost. When I designed it back in the spring of '99 I wanted to run far more boost than any Powerdyne owner (my competition at the time) could ever dream of. But at 15-18 psi, my setup is too strong for any car to handle except for mine, which has had a full-forged racing rebuild. Once other people with my setup upgrade their transmissions, suspensions, and engines, they'll be pushing 11's too.

And James' setup is the same. His was designed for 300-shots of nitrous. Nobody has an engine built to handle it yet, but once they do they'll be in the 10's.

See what I mean? Faulty logic. Run what you brung. Doesn't matter what your car could do given XXX more mods, it matters what you do now. So do what I've done for three years now and keep your mouth shut until you have the numbers to back it up! (Not directed at anyone in particular--just a general statement aimed at anyone who is cocky over an unproven setup. I don't brag about Pathogen's setup yet.)

Originally posted by Speed:
Pathogens car is running an L67 bottom end last time I read his website more than a year ago. The L67 bottom end was designed by GM for a boosted Series II.

*cough* Wrong car. [img]smile.gif[/img] We have two cars, both supercharged: Virus (mine, the black one) and Pathogen (Jenn's, the blue one). Mine is built with a modified L67 bottom end, worked heads, and pushing "very high" boost. Hers is a stock bottom end L36 with ~10 psi. Mine is set up as a road racer, hers is a straight squishy-rear-suspension dragster, both are manuals. We're expecting hers to pull low 13's/high 12's and mine we're hoping for 11's. That might be difficult, though, considering my road racing suspension... so we will also be gauging our success heavily by looking at dyno numbers.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Shirl:
Speed, in no way was any of this directed toward you. I don't even know who you are. Could you please identify yourself?

To identify myself, I'm the owner of KBS Turbo, the company working with Tiago and producing these kits.

Originally posted by Shirl:
My statements are very general and to the point. I fully understand the reasoning behind practice "shakedown" runs but the point is...it gets old. If I were to post every "shakedown" run I ever did before getting my car running properly, people would get tired of hearing the excuses.

For the shakedowns, I've only been to the track with the prototype car once so I don't see how anyone is getting tired of it. Further, we aren't throwing crap out there that no one is interested in; we are giving people interested in the kits an update on our progress.

I have made no excuses for the car or the kit, I've given facts: the simple and honest truth. I found it impressive to run a low 14 second 1/4 mile with a car. It was cool to shift into 4th and see the tach increase in RPM while the speedo remains stagnent. These are the best numbers we currently have to offer and people wanted to know. Is it wrong to believe that replacing the clutch will make it faster? Better said, is it wrong to say that I believe it will?

Originally posted by Shirl:
And,if anyone knows about the cost of speed, it's me. It is costly to build these cars up. A word of caution to everyone is: read between the LINES.

I'm well aquinted with the cost of speed. I have been racing something since I was 5 years old. I've raced dirt track, oval track, road raced open class motorcycles, and built my fair share of drag cars. Believe me, I have paid my dues as much as anyone here. Infact, the single, sole, and only reason I began this business was I was irritated with the the insane markup many products out there.

Originally posted by Shirl:
If something is not going correctly then there is a PROBLEM. This is similar to what the magazines do: they sugarcoat a product in an article and say "there was this problem", but once it was fixed "the car ran really great!" This is BS. It is a typical tactic to get readers to buy the product even though there could be glitches in it. Sorry Speed, but the members need to see kits that are proven whether it is a supercharger or turbo. That is just reality.

Beyond what I said above, the car ran like crap but we fixed this problem and now it runs awesome isn't BS, it's bringing more information into the community. It might be information people can use; even those who don't own our kit. If it's wrong to spread information because it relates to our product then I guess I'll remain a sinner.

We aren't sugercoating things like a magazine, we are actually bringing the problems and their solutions into the forum for everyone to see. That makes a better educated user as well as a faster v6 f-body community. Again, I see no harm done.

Finally, you act like we are out here trying to deceve everyone into buying a substandard product or lying about our results. On one hand we are being criticized for posting every little detail and on the other for not telling people enough and hiding things "between the lines". And all this from a respected member of a community who used to complain that the V6 f-body cars didn't get enough attention from the aftermarket. For everything we are attempting to do that will benefit this community with the kit release and it's pricing, I don't see where we deserve comments questioning our integraty.

Shirl I understand your comments have been/are general but they are addressed to a group to which I belong and I am addressing them from my own stand point.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Stefan:
*cough* Wrong car. [img]smile.gif[/img] We have two cars, both supercharged: Virus (mine, the black one) and Pathogen (Jenn's, the blue one). Mine is built with a modified L67 bottom end, worked heads, and pushing "very high" boost. Hers is a stock bottom end L36 with ~10 psi. Mine is set up as a road racer, hers is a straight squishy-rear-suspension dragster, both are manuals. We're expecting hers to pull low 13's/high 12's and mine we're hoping for 11's. That might be difficult, though, considering my road racing suspension... so we will also be gauging our success heavily by looking at dyno numbers.

Ahh, ok. I didn't realize you were he/he were you and forgot you had two of them. I admin the ws6zxr board and seen the username Pathogen post in the MAFBA section somehow misconnected that car to the L67 bottom end. I'm a fan of both cars. Infact it was your Virus car that orignally gave me the idea for the turbo l36 fireo using the L67 bottom end. After building the Grand Prix kit, I got sold on it until I went Northstar. The Fiero will be our corner turner when we are done with it.

[Ender2664]

Another thing that you need to add to this convo is money. Money is a big thing cause it is limited, and the turbo kit is WAY less than the supercharger. It is much easier today for me to buy the turbo kit and use my know how to get me into the 12s, than it is to do it with a supercharger. And it is known what turbo is the best of out v6 cars, just look at the charts, what isnt know is what turbo kit is best for our cars...aka whos piping bends promote more hp. I belive that if viper puts on the right size turbo we are going to see low numbers come out of his beast. Turbos are the better choice for a fbody as of now.

[mattsv6]

i think this is a waste of time too argue about. who cares what is better. compare times instead of what type of forced induction a car has. i have been looking into finding a totalled car that is somewhat complete and building the same motor that it in my turbo car (minus the cam, will be a custom blower grind) and putting that in the car with either a t-trim vortech or maybe even a YSi trim. might sound stupid but it is basically the same thing as my 72mm.

i think that forced induction is the best bet with these cars and it has all but totally been proven already.

and yes there is no track open within 45 hours of my location. so timeslips are basically out of the picture fvor a few more months. but i am planning things here. all my first season of passes wont be crazy because i have too see what i have too replace in the car too make it handle the power. i no i have too get a better rear end, and i dont now what the tranny will hold up too the way i have it built. but i am going too post times jsut so you all can see the progress of the car.

either way, we shouldnt be fighting and name calling within our group. that is nonsense!

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

yeah Tiago advised me to upgrade the turbo when i get the cash, but frst i have to get my dad to get the motor out of the damn car and to the shop :mad:

also have to take it easy on the tranny and rear till i get the cash to up grade them. or just stay in Iraq a few more months (like 6)

still got to get sub frame and lower control arms and toque arms to hold down the rear tires,

but i will at least get the the track while im home and leave and post some numbers, then it will be about 8 months b/f i can even post any more in that time my room should agian be full of upgades to go on

[Mighty Thor]

Amen Stephan!!

People then to forget that's all about air flow. Whether it comes from Turbo or Supercharger, they are both Force Induction. To say one is better than the other is a misconception. There are advantages and disadvantages on both of them.

Right now my car is running 8 psi. with the Laron groove and JohnD wrap. I have issues with my setup right now. To run more boost would be ineffective.

[12secondv6]

Originally posted by mattsv6:
i think this is a waste of time too argue about.

Exactly, we ALL know nitrous is better [img]tongue.gif[/img]