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FORCED INDUCTION
Just a rundown on information about the advantages and disadvantages of forced induction and the different types of forced induction and what you should look for when purchasing or building your setup.
The advantages of running forced induction are really easy, for one you can easily add 50% more HP to your car or more when running forced induction. This can allow you to upgrade the power of your car to that of a v8 without actually swapping an LT1 or LS1 into your car. In some cases you can even get better gas mileage per HP with a v6 with forced induction than a standard v8. Also the 3800II v6 is a pretty stout little engine and can safely run7psi of boost with little to no problem and some have even run 10psi on a daily basis. Anything over 10psi becomes risky.
Now the disadvantages of running forced induction. Your gas mileage will go down, how much it actually decreases depends on your driving style. The more time you spend making boost or under high boost the more your mileage will go down. Your engine life will be decreased, however if you are responsible with the amount of boost and with how you prepare your engine for boost your engine can last well over 100,000 miles. The other thing involved in forced induction is taking care of an extra system on your car. Changing your oil only becomes more important (in most cases), also some problems may arise in you system in which case you should consult this message board or find a professional in your area to take a look at it.
SUPERCHARGING
-THE M90 GTP SUPERCHARGER WILL NOT WORK WITHOUT DUMPING SERIOUS MONEY INTO YOUR CAR!!!- for more info about the problems with this setup do a search, there is a lot about this topic. The centrifugal supercharger is the only feasible type of supercharger to add to a 4th gen F-body. Superchargers offer partial boost instantly and the boost increases with your rpm. Because superchargers offer boost right off the line they also lower your gas mileage all the time and the higher your rpm the lower your gas mileage. You will also only reach full boost at your highest rpm. This means every time you shift your boost has to build back up. Since superchargers are run off the belt they basically run as an extra accessory they take power to run. Basically you should think of this, If a supercharger takes so much power to run but adds so much power the final power output from the supercharger will be the additional power minus the power it takes to run.
Supercharging Systems
One kit sold for the 3800 series II F-body is the Powerdyne kit which is sold by RKsport for about $3700+. This is an odd type of supercharger in that it does not require oil feed lines to keep the gears running smooth because this unit is not gear driven, it is belt driven (internally). This belt driven system offers the advantage of running much quieter than its gear driven counterparts and (as I just said) doesn’t require the oil lines making the install much easier. The problem with the belt system is it can not efficiently produce boost past 12psi (this is only a problem if you are building up a 15-20psi beast). This kit also doesn’t offer an intercooler (see the intercooler section further down the page). If you decide you want to get the powerdyne kit there are two pulley’s you can get a 6psi and a 9psi. The 6psi will work fine with no problems; the 9psi can get some slippage. In the case that you get slippage with either system you can do the John D wrap with your belt and it should be lessened (for more info on the John D wrap do a search). After you do the John D wrap if you are still getting slippage get a grooved pulley (again for info on how to get a grooved pulley do a search). The only other kit offered for the 3.8 F-body is the mach performance kit. This kit uses a gear driven ATI Procharger unit and an intercooler. There are not many people with this kit but it appears to be a very well built kit. To order this kit you can go to their website www.machperformance.com. If you want to have a custom supercharger kit for your 3.8 F-bods you can get info from pathogen and Stefan on their ATI Procharger systems. There are also some people on this board who are making custom Vortech systems which you can also get information from. Recently a kit for the 3400 v6 F-body has been produced. It uses a Vortech supercharger and is made by RSM Racing and can be found at this site http://www.rsmracing.com/us/main.htm . I have not heard much about this kit but Vortech is a very reputable company known for producing high quality superchargers so it is probably a pretty good kit. If you want to know how much power each of these systems has made do a search then ask if you can’t find anything.
TURBOCHARGING
Turbochargers differ from supercharges in several ways. First off they are run off exhaust gasses not off the accessory belt. Though they add backpressure to your exhaust they tend to be more efficient than superchargers. If a turbo adds 200hp to the engine the most you will lose from that # is 50hp due to the added backpressure so it would add 150hp to the wheels. The turbo also offers a boost threshold (this is where the turbo actually starts adding power to your engine). On our car a common boost threshold for a properly setup system is around 3000rpm. This means that until you reach 3000rpm you will basically be running with a naturally aspirated engine and thus getting basically the same mileage you were before you added the turbo. This is a two way street though. While you aren’t losing mileage until 3000rpm you also aren’t adding any power. The time it takes you to reach 3000rpm is your lag which is usually not very long if you are running at wide open throttle. Though they don’t add much boost until 3000rpm they hit full boost at this point and keep making it to the redline (you don’t have to be at your peak rpm to make your peak boost). You can also maintain near full boost through each gear without having to build it back up. The other thing about turbochargers is there is a lot of piping involved. Where a supercharger can run a very short distance to the intake the turbo hast to either have the exhaust run the front of the engine to run the turbo and then POSSIBLY to the intake or put the turbo in the back of the engine and run the air charge POSSIBLY up to the intake. The reason I put stress on the word possibly is because with a turbo an intercooler is a very wise choice.
Turbo Systems
There is only one turbo system available right now and that is the one from www.force-fed-fabrications.com There have been major shipping and waiting issues with this kit however (over a year for some). The performance of this kit is pretty good and for the price of $3000 it might be worth the wait for some. it comes with all the neccesary components (including an intercooler) and piping to install on your car.
www.3800performance.com says they will soon have a kit available for the 3800 f-body's however the intercooler will be an option and no prices or expected performance gains have yet been listed as of yet.
INTERCOOLERS
These are quite simply heat sinks for your air charge coming from either your super or turbo charger.
Quick physics lesson –when you compress air it heats up-
Quick info about engines –hot air can cause detonation (trust me this is very bad and can literally kill your engine)-
An intercooler basically helps cool down the air after it has been heated by any type of forced induction and thus lowers the risk of detonation. There are two types of intercoolers air to air and air to water. First I will focus on the air to air type of intercooler. There are also two different types of air to air intercoolers, tube and fin and bar and plate. Tube and fin are usually much cheaper and are used as original equipment on cars like the eclipse GSX which comes with a turbo from the factory. These types of intercoolers do their job pretty well but are not very robust. If a rock hits one of these your best case is you will have a less efficient intercooler (because some of the fins will be bent allowing less air to flow through it) at worst you will have a huge leak in your FI system and get little to no boost. Now a bar and plate intercooler is much stronger and is at least as efficient as a tube in fin (usually more efficient). A small rock can hit this type and cause little to no damage other than some cosmetic damage. Now for air to water. for a street setup this is not the best choice as it is not as efficient at cooling the air as an air to air setup unless ice is added (basically something you do at the track). An air to water system consists of a resivoir, a pump, the intercooler and a radiator to cool the water back down. An air to water intercooler is in essance an air to air with a water jacket around it. instead of air passing over the IC water does, the water is then pumped out then throught the radiator to cool and then back to the resevoir and then to the IC again. This system is better in a track only system because it can cool the charge better at lower speeds because it doesnt need air to run through the IC to cool it and thus when Iced down it is a better choice.
BLOW OFF VALVES
all a blow off valve does is allow the boost pressure to vent and prevent compressor surge when the throttle body closes. It is basically a preventative measure to preserve the life of your compressor. There are two ways to do a blow off valve, 1. is to just let the air release to the atmosphere, this is your standard blow off valve system, 2. is to have a hose come off the BOV and rout it back to the intake of the forced induction compressor, this is called a bypass valve system. With our cars a blow off valve is fine a bypass valve is not needed. You don't need to spend massive amounts of money on a BOV as they all do the same thing. Search this site and other for reliability of the different BOV's and that is all you need to research.
WASTEGATES
These are only used on turbo chargers. Where the size of the pulley on a supercharger dictates how much boost it will produce the waste gate limits the turbo to producing only a certain amount (so you don’t over boost your engine). Wastegates can be internal (on the turbo itself) and external (positioned on the exhaust pipe directly before the turbo). Basically what either type of wastegate does allow some of the exhaust gas to bypass the turbo to keep it from adding more boost than the desired setting (which you set the gate to). If you want more info about internal vs. external wastegates please do a search.
[ September 06, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: T-Punk ]
Just a rundown on information about the advantages and disadvantages of forced induction and the different types of forced induction and what you should look for when purchasing or building your setup.
The advantages of running forced induction are really easy, for one you can easily add 50% more HP to your car or more when running forced induction. This can allow you to upgrade the power of your car to that of a v8 without actually swapping an LT1 or LS1 into your car. In some cases you can even get better gas mileage per HP with a v6 with forced induction than a standard v8. Also the 3800II v6 is a pretty stout little engine and can safely run7psi of boost with little to no problem and some have even run 10psi on a daily basis. Anything over 10psi becomes risky.
Now the disadvantages of running forced induction. Your gas mileage will go down, how much it actually decreases depends on your driving style. The more time you spend making boost or under high boost the more your mileage will go down. Your engine life will be decreased, however if you are responsible with the amount of boost and with how you prepare your engine for boost your engine can last well over 100,000 miles. The other thing involved in forced induction is taking care of an extra system on your car. Changing your oil only becomes more important (in most cases), also some problems may arise in you system in which case you should consult this message board or find a professional in your area to take a look at it.
SUPERCHARGING
-THE M90 GTP SUPERCHARGER WILL NOT WORK WITHOUT DUMPING SERIOUS MONEY INTO YOUR CAR!!!- for more info about the problems with this setup do a search, there is a lot about this topic. The centrifugal supercharger is the only feasible type of supercharger to add to a 4th gen F-body. Superchargers offer partial boost instantly and the boost increases with your rpm. Because superchargers offer boost right off the line they also lower your gas mileage all the time and the higher your rpm the lower your gas mileage. You will also only reach full boost at your highest rpm. This means every time you shift your boost has to build back up. Since superchargers are run off the belt they basically run as an extra accessory they take power to run. Basically you should think of this, If a supercharger takes so much power to run but adds so much power the final power output from the supercharger will be the additional power minus the power it takes to run.
Supercharging Systems
One kit sold for the 3800 series II F-body is the Powerdyne kit which is sold by RKsport for about $3700+. This is an odd type of supercharger in that it does not require oil feed lines to keep the gears running smooth because this unit is not gear driven, it is belt driven (internally). This belt driven system offers the advantage of running much quieter than its gear driven counterparts and (as I just said) doesn’t require the oil lines making the install much easier. The problem with the belt system is it can not efficiently produce boost past 12psi (this is only a problem if you are building up a 15-20psi beast). This kit also doesn’t offer an intercooler (see the intercooler section further down the page). If you decide you want to get the powerdyne kit there are two pulley’s you can get a 6psi and a 9psi. The 6psi will work fine with no problems; the 9psi can get some slippage. In the case that you get slippage with either system you can do the John D wrap with your belt and it should be lessened (for more info on the John D wrap do a search). After you do the John D wrap if you are still getting slippage get a grooved pulley (again for info on how to get a grooved pulley do a search). The only other kit offered for the 3.8 F-body is the mach performance kit. This kit uses a gear driven ATI Procharger unit and an intercooler. There are not many people with this kit but it appears to be a very well built kit. To order this kit you can go to their website www.machperformance.com. If you want to have a custom supercharger kit for your 3.8 F-bods you can get info from pathogen and Stefan on their ATI Procharger systems. There are also some people on this board who are making custom Vortech systems which you can also get information from. Recently a kit for the 3400 v6 F-body has been produced. It uses a Vortech supercharger and is made by RSM Racing and can be found at this site http://www.rsmracing.com/us/main.htm . I have not heard much about this kit but Vortech is a very reputable company known for producing high quality superchargers so it is probably a pretty good kit. If you want to know how much power each of these systems has made do a search then ask if you can’t find anything.
TURBOCHARGING
Turbochargers differ from supercharges in several ways. First off they are run off exhaust gasses not off the accessory belt. Though they add backpressure to your exhaust they tend to be more efficient than superchargers. If a turbo adds 200hp to the engine the most you will lose from that # is 50hp due to the added backpressure so it would add 150hp to the wheels. The turbo also offers a boost threshold (this is where the turbo actually starts adding power to your engine). On our car a common boost threshold for a properly setup system is around 3000rpm. This means that until you reach 3000rpm you will basically be running with a naturally aspirated engine and thus getting basically the same mileage you were before you added the turbo. This is a two way street though. While you aren’t losing mileage until 3000rpm you also aren’t adding any power. The time it takes you to reach 3000rpm is your lag which is usually not very long if you are running at wide open throttle. Though they don’t add much boost until 3000rpm they hit full boost at this point and keep making it to the redline (you don’t have to be at your peak rpm to make your peak boost). You can also maintain near full boost through each gear without having to build it back up. The other thing about turbochargers is there is a lot of piping involved. Where a supercharger can run a very short distance to the intake the turbo hast to either have the exhaust run the front of the engine to run the turbo and then POSSIBLY to the intake or put the turbo in the back of the engine and run the air charge POSSIBLY up to the intake. The reason I put stress on the word possibly is because with a turbo an intercooler is a very wise choice.
Turbo Systems
There is only one turbo system available right now and that is the one from www.force-fed-fabrications.com There have been major shipping and waiting issues with this kit however (over a year for some). The performance of this kit is pretty good and for the price of $3000 it might be worth the wait for some. it comes with all the neccesary components (including an intercooler) and piping to install on your car.
www.3800performance.com says they will soon have a kit available for the 3800 f-body's however the intercooler will be an option and no prices or expected performance gains have yet been listed as of yet.
INTERCOOLERS
These are quite simply heat sinks for your air charge coming from either your super or turbo charger.
Quick physics lesson –when you compress air it heats up-
Quick info about engines –hot air can cause detonation (trust me this is very bad and can literally kill your engine)-
An intercooler basically helps cool down the air after it has been heated by any type of forced induction and thus lowers the risk of detonation. There are two types of intercoolers air to air and air to water. First I will focus on the air to air type of intercooler. There are also two different types of air to air intercoolers, tube and fin and bar and plate. Tube and fin are usually much cheaper and are used as original equipment on cars like the eclipse GSX which comes with a turbo from the factory. These types of intercoolers do their job pretty well but are not very robust. If a rock hits one of these your best case is you will have a less efficient intercooler (because some of the fins will be bent allowing less air to flow through it) at worst you will have a huge leak in your FI system and get little to no boost. Now a bar and plate intercooler is much stronger and is at least as efficient as a tube in fin (usually more efficient). A small rock can hit this type and cause little to no damage other than some cosmetic damage. Now for air to water. for a street setup this is not the best choice as it is not as efficient at cooling the air as an air to air setup unless ice is added (basically something you do at the track). An air to water system consists of a resivoir, a pump, the intercooler and a radiator to cool the water back down. An air to water intercooler is in essance an air to air with a water jacket around it. instead of air passing over the IC water does, the water is then pumped out then throught the radiator to cool and then back to the resevoir and then to the IC again. This system is better in a track only system because it can cool the charge better at lower speeds because it doesnt need air to run through the IC to cool it and thus when Iced down it is a better choice.
BLOW OFF VALVES
all a blow off valve does is allow the boost pressure to vent and prevent compressor surge when the throttle body closes. It is basically a preventative measure to preserve the life of your compressor. There are two ways to do a blow off valve, 1. is to just let the air release to the atmosphere, this is your standard blow off valve system, 2. is to have a hose come off the BOV and rout it back to the intake of the forced induction compressor, this is called a bypass valve system. With our cars a blow off valve is fine a bypass valve is not needed. You don't need to spend massive amounts of money on a BOV as they all do the same thing. Search this site and other for reliability of the different BOV's and that is all you need to research.
WASTEGATES
These are only used on turbo chargers. Where the size of the pulley on a supercharger dictates how much boost it will produce the waste gate limits the turbo to producing only a certain amount (so you don’t over boost your engine). Wastegates can be internal (on the turbo itself) and external (positioned on the exhaust pipe directly before the turbo). Basically what either type of wastegate does allow some of the exhaust gas to bypass the turbo to keep it from adding more boost than the desired setting (which you set the gate to). If you want more info about internal vs. external wastegates please do a search.
[ September 06, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: T-Punk ]
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