Update for those interested....

[Linxs]

Originally posted by phoenix64:
Doesn't anyone else think its a little strange that SLP, ZZP, and Intense have been selling these for years, and now they don't work?

What do you mean by they don't work?

[phoenix64]

We have had excellent results using this MAF sensor in our own tuning applications; finding that it is much easier to tune over the standard "LS6" MAF included in the popular larger bore throttle body conversion kits. The SLP high-performance 85mm mass-air-flow sensor flows an astounding 895 CFM right out of the box, and if you remove the screen (not recommended on street cars) you can flow an incredible 1000 CFM! This lightweight composite unit is recalibrated with a 1998 LS1 F-body sampler and is fully capable of supporting the wildest 3800 engine applications. Simply have us program your INTENSE™ Powertrain Control Module or you can use your own HP Tuners VCM Suite with 1998 LS1 F-body MAF tables. No more guessing if you have the right tables with your MAF sensor, or trying to tune a confusing combination.


Thats from Intese's website. They claim it will support the "wildest 3.8". According to teufel and GN, it has the same flow potential as the stocker? How could they sell something that does nothing? What is the point of having an maf capable of 1000CFM, if it wont read past 500?

If teufel and GN are right it does nothing? Why would you buy or sell something that does nothing?

If all that is true how is it that the 85mm MAF put the intense turbo car in the 10'S?

They are using the min AFC, but still.

[ February 21, 2005, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: phoenix64 ]

[Linxs]

Originally posted by phoenix64:
We have had excellent results using this MAF sensor in our own tuning applications; finding that it is much easier to tune over the standard "LS6" MAF included in the popular larger bore throttle body conversion kits. The SLP high-performance 85mm mass-air-flow sensor flows an astounding 895 CFM right out of the box, and if you remove the screen (not recommended on street cars) you can flow an incredible 1000 CFM! This lightweight composite unit is recalibrated with a 1998 LS1 F-body sampler and is fully capable of supporting the wildest 3800 engine applications. Simply have us program your INTENSE™ Powertrain Control Module or you can use your own HP Tuners VCM Suite with 1998 LS1 F-body MAF tables. No more guessing if you have the right tables with your MAF sensor, or trying to tune a confusing combination.


Thats from Intese's website. They claim it will support the "wildest 3.8". According to teufel and GN, it has the same flow potential as the stocker? How could they sell something that does nothing? What is the point of having an maf capable of 1000CFM, if it wont read past 500?

If teufel and GN are right it does nothing? Why would you buy or sell something that does nothing?

If all that is true how is it that the 85mm MAF put the intense turbo car in the 10'S?

Nevermind, they are using a min AFC on the turbo car.

Ok now you have confused me. I do not see where either of those 2 have said putting on a new MAF will do nothing. I see where they say I’ll still have the same problems. I think you are reading too much in their posts. I have been working with this MAF problem for a while now. I (and others) thought this would solve my problem but it really is not, it just moved it to a larger boost PSI. If this recalibration is workable then turboed cars have a way to tune without having to do SD tuning (which is weather sensitive). A mini AFC is just like (basically) re-caling your MAF. I’m not sure why you included this statement?

[Teufel Hunden]

MAFs are a complicated issue really. About aftermarket units, most good tuners will tell you that they do more harm than good. Your typical aftermarket MAF on an LS1 usually just leans the car out. If you're running rich to begin with, you'll see a gain... but i know a couple guys that had their cars leaned out so bad, they were pinging at high RPMs. It's kinda like removing the screens... alot of guys do it because "they heard" of other people doing it, and some guys even claim to see gains from that mod. Really, the screens are in place to straighten the air flow so your MAF gets the best reading, so removing them is more harmful than anything else. Companies selling aftermarket units claim to support X amount of HP, which is probably what the unit itself is capable of flowing, not necessarily accurately reading or adjusting for. In the earlier days of LS1 modding, it wasn't abundantly aparent why aftermarket MAFs weren't the greatest thing ever until the tuning software became more common and developed. We're there now with our V6 cars.. not many people are tuning them, not many people are making the big HP figures, so it's not widely known or accepted throughout the tuning community that aftermarket units are just a waste of time.

At the point the stock MAF, retuned or otherwise, is not able to support it, is at a point most of us will never see. It's at the level that most people get away from the stock computer, and use a new computer, like a F.A.S.T system, which is Speed Density. I'm talking about all out drag cars making ungodly amounts of power, not my car at 348rwhp, or Linxs' car which probably makes 360+ rwhp @ 10psi.

Also, when going off of what a company has on their website.. look at what those electronic supercharger/turbo companies claim, but we all know the truth about that. STS dealers claim HUGE gains at the track, when the truth is, i know an employee at Thunder Racing who confirmed that their STS equipped car ran faster times with just bolt ons. Now they're using the bolt on times and claiming they're the turbo times. Frankly, i don't care what ZZP says about most of their products... i've been around turbo cars long enough that from experience i have a good idea of what works and what doesn't. A retuned stock MAF works until the time comes that the stock computer is no longer capable of handling that power. And SLP talking about their MAFs.. well i've seen enough LS1 cars gain absolutely nothing, or run worse with them, that i'd never bring myself to put one on my car.

[tdz16]

I'm going to be using a t3/t4 .50 a/r. Will I max the maf at 10 psi? Thanks.

[Teufel Hunden]

Originally posted by tdz16:
I'm going to be using a t3/t4 .50 a/r. Will I max the maf at 10 psi? Thanks.

You'll probably be fine.

[phoenix64]

I must have missed something, the LS1 MAf got you more flow, just not enough. Both GN and teufel said in the other post it wouldn't get you anymore flow?

Why is this recurving the stocker such a big deal? GP an boniville guys have been doing it for years with the mini AFC. Why is it better to have the MAF itself recurved, seems to me that would suck if it failed. Much more expensive.

After re-reading that other topic about tuning, I'm going to refrain from posting till I take some reading comprehension classes.

Sorry to Linxs if I in anyway influnced you to buy the MAF, never thought you'd be able to max it. Before you get rid of it, keep in mind it still has quite a few advantages over the stocker. Less restrictive, and more accurate.

[Teufel Hunden]

Originally posted by phoenix64:
Both GN and teufel said in the other post it wouldn't get you anymore flow?

Why is this recurving the stocker such a big deal? GP an boniville guys have been doing it for years with the mini AFC. Why is it better to have the MAF itself recurved, seems to me that would suck if it failed. Much more expensive.

I don't think i said it wouldn't flow more, if i did it was probably a type-o on my part. My point was that it wouldn't be a solution to the problem, as the maxing out isn't coming from airflow alone, It's the relationship between the computer and the MAF reading expressed in Hz.

Using a mini AFC works fine, as can be seen with some of the other cars out there. But, IMO, it's adding more things into the mix, which is what one should want to avoid in the grand scheme of things. A retuned MAF isn't adding more components, it's just changing the current one, which keeps things simple. Having a retuned stock MAF fail isn't all that expensive really... i got ahold of a used TB unit that included the MAF for $30. Getting it retuned isn't looking to be very expensive either, but i'll give that info out when i know for sure (and have it done on my car).

The point is here, there isn't an easy solution to this stuff. Simply buying a new MAF and calling it good isn't going to solve the problem, because the unit itself isn't the only thing that needs solving.

[ February 21, 2005, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Teufel Hunden ]

[Drone51]

can you recalibrate the maf with HP tuners?

[Teufel Hunden]

Originally posted by Drone51:
can you recalibrate the maf with HP tuners?

Not in a way that would solve the need to take care of the issue with the MAF itself.

[HAZ-Matt]

Originally posted by Teufel Hunden:
My point was that it wouldn't be a solution to the problem, as the maxing out isn't coming from airflow alone, It's the relationship between the computer and the MAF reading expressed in Hz.

It was close to a solution. But now you have said something that I finally agree with. MAF scaling, MAF scaling, MAF scaling. How much the MAF "flows" has nothing to do with anything. The scaling of the SLP 85mm is almost correct.

Patrick, could you post the scale values for the new MAF? And from the other thread, what was ambient temperature when the IAT's were 75? I'm wondering what the scaling is on the MAF Zoomer sells, as it is a recal-ed unit.
http://www.zzperformance.com/products1.php?id=190

I think you are moving in the right direction. A recal 85mm MAF is the best solution, IMO. This is why it is frustrating to be the first to do something I suppose.

TH, aftermarket MAFs would only lean a car if the computer was not reprogrammed correctly after the install.

The last issue to address here is whether or not the stock MAF can actually be reprogrammed to read correctly as a blow through, since it isn't a "true MAF."

[HAZ-Matt]

I have a little spreadsheet, and I am trying to see just how much air you are flowing. I've had to guess and fudge some numbers but I am seeing 40.1 lbs/min at 10psi, with a manifold temp of 75. That's using VE of 80%.

That's 302.8g/s

[Teufel Hunden]

Originally posted by HAZ-Matt:


The last issue to address here is whether or not the stock MAF can actually be reprogrammed to read correctly as a blow through, since it isn't a "true MAF."

Yes it can. True MAF by the definition of the term or not, It still does its job the way it needs to. My car will be the example once everything is worked out over here. I'll post up about it when it's all squared away.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

umm

why not but the LS6 maf and have it calibarted and delet the stocker??

i know GN-t66 was saying how the kit was bad because of the intake pip and it feeding to maf so relocating it to place that would get a more even air flow would make more sence to me

unless he was just saying that to stir thing up

[nocutt]

You guys need to stop complicating an issue which isn't complicated...I have said this...again and again quit buying into other ppl post...you are not the first to do this and hopefully won't be the last. Use ideas that have worked for ppl and do your own research and see how it can equalize the condition...*don't buy a MAF without a known calibration*


The MAF <hardware> itself, dependent on which you have has a direct and specific correlation to WHAT IS PROGRAMMED. What is programed or pre-programmed can be skewed almost in 3-D with some form of interceptor (enter AFC, MAFt, ARC2 etc).
To proove you are Maxing the MAF, you need to eliminate other variables accordingly...


In reality it doesn't matter what MAF you put in...the hardware itself calculates in frequency ONLY, this is were one of the problem is...when the pcm receives this input assuming the "NEW MAF" isn't calibrated then airflow table is ^(%^%^...in other words...EFF'd! Three things now, 1.)make sure you are maxing the MAF (either one, stock or new) and where in the powerband it is happening...if you know post it!! 2.) The 85mm MAF SLP you cannot max out @ 12psi...except the Hardware itself is faulty/oiled (possibility) or not calibrated properly in your PCM...in which case, you will be messing with fire. I don't know who has tables for that 85mm MAF but I am sure someone is running that MAF on a turbocharged 231ci motor 3.) If everything you say is correct assuming you can support it with data; (meaning for those who cannot read between the line) you might have slightly overlooked something else then get/borrow a recalibrator (interceptor)that should get you were you need to be...

Turbulence is another variable to turbo cars with a blow thru MAF (whether with screen or not)...important how flow reaches the meter...

Right now it is difficult or becoming difficult to know how far off you are...x% close or xx% off...guys becareful

[ February 21, 2005, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: nocutt ]