Electric Supercharger.. finally done.

[L32Projekt]

Hi Geoff,

I spoke with you last year concerning a custom upper intake manifold for mounting a roots-type SC on the 3.4L Camaro and decided against it. My question to you now is have you come up with a way to get around the positioning of the intake of the roots-type SC, and have clearance issues with the cowl been addressed for the way our RWD engines sit in the engine bay? Concerning the ESC, way to go, nice to see some innovation out there!

Edit: Meant custom lower intake manifold, d'oh! [img]graemlins/slap.gif[/img]

[Tiago]

bring it. when your batteries run out, I'll still be spoolin ;)

[Linxs]

hm $2200 for a 15 second boost (not including the cost of the additional equipment).... $3000 for an constant-don't-have-to-recharge boost? I think you're a little pricy when compairing what you get...

[ May 17, 2004, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Linxs ]

[atsturbo]

Many of you dont see what lies ahead. Battery-capacitors used in the military jets can discharge 1000 amps for 20 seconds and fully recharge in 5 seconds. The limiting factor is the alternator at this point. Alternators will get more powerful and the recharging time shorter to where a 15 second run will recharge in several seconds so even road race cars will soon be able to take advantage of the ESC. We have sourced a 550 amp alternator, and that would recharge in 20 seconds after a 20 second run. So we are at 1:1 already (incredibly expensive right now--$5500 for the batcaps, and $2200 for the alternator) but those costs will drop dramatically as other companies enter this market. Dont look at this through tunnelvision. Look at the possibilities. I already have three 22 hp motors driving a screw-type supercharger producing 30+ psi with spoolup to full boost in 2/10th, and that will be in my Neon race car running 475-500hp. My first runs will be Sept (if we dont get rained out) and should be low 11's high 10's.
I will make a run and be fully recharged by the next staging. I bet you NOX boys wish you could do that!!! And for you turbo fanatics, dont forget that I have been involved with turbos since the mid 70's, and turbos were scoffed at by EVERYONE until the GN came out in 1986. Then the V8 guys realized how good a turbo could be. Now everyone worships at the turbo altar and scoffs at the ESC. Pretty ironic to someone who has been through the detractors and critics before.

L32Projekt --By using a short drive snout we move the Eaton forward enough so a plenum can fit behind the blower and curve back toward the front.

[Linxs]

Originally posted by atsturbo:
Many of you dont see what lies ahead. Battery-capacitors used in the military jets can discharge 1000 amps for 20 seconds and fully recharge in 5 seconds. The limiting factor is the alternator at this point. Alternators will get more powerful and the recharging time shorter to where a 15 second run will recharge in several seconds so even road race cars will soon be able to take advantage of the ESC. We have sourced a 550 amp alternator, and that would recharge in 20 seconds after a 20 second run. So we are at 1:1 already (incredibly expensive right now--$5500 for the batcaps, and $2200 for the alternator) but those costs will drop dramatically as other companies enter this market. Dont look at this through tunnelvision. Look at the possibilities. I already have three 22 hp motors driving a screw-type supercharger producing 30+ psi with spoolup to full boost in 2/10th, and that will be in my Neon race car running 475-500hp. My first runs will be Sept (if we dont get rained out) and should be low 11's high 10's.
I will make a run and be fully recharged by the next staging. I bet you NOX boys wish you could do that!!! And for you turbo fanatics, dont forget that I have been involved with turbos since the mid 70's, and turbos were scoffed at by EVERYONE until the GN came out in 1986. Then the V8 guys realized how good a turbo could be. Now everyone worships at the turbo altar and scoffs at the ESC. Pretty ironic to someone who has been through the detractors and critics before.

L32Projekt --By using a short drive snout we move the Eaton forward enough so a plenum can fit behind the blower and curve back toward the front.

I do not disagree with you, your product is nice. However, lets look at what you get.... a 20 second boost then a recharge VS a constant-non-recharging boost. Honestly, I scratch my head why it would be benifical for me to purchase your product over a turbo/super charger. This has nothing to do with tunnel vision. Let me explain: I want the power when I am ready for it. I may want to goof off and race light to light on the street. I may want the power while on the freeway to pass some idiot. Then I might want it again 2 miles down the road cause the idiot is back and acting like a fool. Your product does not give that to me.

Many of you dont see what lies ahead. Battery-capacitors used in the military jets can discharge 1000 amps for 20 seconds and fully recharge in 5 seconds.

Do you realize it will be years before you can get ahold of something like this that will fit into a car? Not to mention the added weight and cost alone will be still to much.
Down the road, yes, you may be able to recharge in say 5 seconds but that still does not compare to the constant power you'll receive with a turbo.

Now maybe I am wrong, and if I am please show me. But, cost for cost comparing what I would get, I would still pick a turbo all day long. Honestly, I do not see your product as a market compeditor until you figure out how to make this a constant power adder (meaning no recharging and will spool as long as I need/want it). For a track car your product might be great but for people who still use our cars as daily drivers and want some added power it just is not practical.

[ May 19, 2004, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Linxs ]

[wantmorepower]

I agree with others. Right now the ESC seems to fall a little short of what can be had with supers/turbos that we are using now.

But WTG with trying something new and making it a success. Very nice looking product. I could really see this type of forced induction becoming more common with battery/charging improvements. [img]graemlins/rock.gif[/img]

[Speed]

Geoff - I'm glad to see you posting. I think your supercharger system very clever. However I do take issue with this claim...

Originally posted by atsturbo:
One more point. My ESC will make more hp than any other forced induction anywhere when compared boost psi to boost psi.

My LT1 turbocharger kit made 462/473 at 7psi on an engine that originally made 262/298 with no other mods except my turbocharger kit. No computer tuning. I challange you to beat that number at 7psi on a stock LT1.

Better yet, I would be happy to run your system vs one of my kits at a track somewhere convienent for both of us. Does 10 back to back passes sound fair?

Please understand this is not a flame. Your system is innovative. However to claim that your electronic (what appears to be) roots style supercharger makes more power at the same boost level than any other forced induction system out there is a bold claim and I would enjoy the opportunity to see you back it up.

[BadAzzRS]

electrical = will have problems, what if it burns out? LOL

[Tiago]

batteries are for kids toys :D

[oil pan 4]

I want to see how this comes out.
I like them all turbo, nitrous, super charging and soon maybe this.
Before the for the GN and TTA turbos werenot main steam

[HankHill]

All this discussion of batteries, capacitors and electric superchargers is interesting. At what point do you ditch the mill and go electric?

Electric Dragster web page

HH

[L32Projekt]

Originally posted by Tiago:
batteries are for kids toys :D

Scared Tiago? ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Originally posted by atsturbo:
One more point. My ESC will make more hp than any other forced induction anywhere when compared boost psi to boost psi. We cant compare an intercooled 20 psi turbo kit and my ESC at 8 psi. But both setups on the same car will always make more power with my ESC. The reasons are simple. A turbo requires restrictive exhaust backpressure to make pressure on the intake side. The exhaust pressure vs intake pressure is called the intake-exhaust pressure ratio. A typical turbo will have 2:1, or as an example a 10 psi intake pressure will have 20 psi in the exhaust manifold. So thermodynamic books have a formula to determine how much hp is lost which is the amount my ESC will make more than ANY turbo. Here is the P/V formula:
CID X PSI X (RPM X .5) divided by 396,000= additional hp
EXAMPLE: 100(cid) x 10 (psi) x (8000 X .5) /396,000 = 10.10 HP (MORE THAN THE BEST TURBO IN EXISTANCE)on a small 1.6 liter engine. Try this on a 5.0 V8 running 6 psi.
300 X 6 X 3000 /396,000 = 14hp.
Add to that cooler EGT's, more timing, cooler combustion chamber temps, etc.
All superchargers require hp to turn them, and the formula in simple terms is CFM X PSI divided by 175. So that 5.0 would use:
600CFM X 6 psi/175= 20hp. So my ESC would make 20hp more than a belt driven SC, and 14hp more than a turbo. You may not know this, but physics and thermodynamics dont lie--they simply prove my design superior.

do you have any idea what would happen to a person if they was working on this and that battery discharged 1 AMP can blow off your hand, i mean i have seen poeples arms blowen of from just working on there car amp (50 amps or so)

1000 amps (even over 20 sec still 50 apms sec for 20 seconds) can you say BBQ and a 20foot area of firied motor head/????? :eek:


i mean you step out of your car (little did you know the batery shorted to the frame, the tires insulating the car.) you step out and get a the worst static shock your camaro has ever given you. and find the "cheap" way into space lol

now if you had two batterys and they both last for 20 sec and take 10 sec to charge using a dual rectifier 1 to swicth to the charged battery, and the 2 to to change the dead battery. ;)

BTW you can't use my idae with out giving monye to this site seens how its copy proteched and all :D

BTW you have any idae how big those batterys are and the added wiegh the the car would make up for that 14 HP loss from the turbo in the other car.... ;)

but it goo to see new thing but i would say this might work better in a plane ? for now

[atsturbo]

do you have any idea what would happen to a person if they was working on this and that battery discharged 1 AMP can blow off your hand, i mean i have seen poeples arms blowen of from just working on there car amp (50 amps or so)

??? 1 AMP--I DONT THINK YOU UNDERSTAND ELECTRICITY--THE AVERAGE CAR STARTER ON A 70'S BIG BLOCK AMERICAN V8 DRAWS 350 AMPS. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???
THE NEW HYBRID CARS RUN 110VDC WITH A BANK OF A DOZEN 700 AMP BATTERIES.

1000 amps (even over 20 sec still 50 apms sec for 20 seconds) can you say BBQ and a 20foot area of firied motor head/?????

WORST CASE SCENARIO IS A TOASTED BATTERY--THE NEW THIN PLATE BATTERIES HAVE A BUILT-IN FUSIBLE LINK THAT RENDERS THE BATTERY USELESS IF SUSTAINED AMPS EXCEED THE RATED CURRENT. I DID BLOW UP SEVERAL OPEN CELL LEAD ACID BATTERIES YEARS AGO, BUT THE NEW OPTIMAS WILL SIMPLY SHORT OUT INTERNALLY. I HAVE DONE THAT TO TWO OF THEM, WHILE THE ODYSSEY BATTERIES ARE MUCH NEWER TECHNOLOGY.


i mean you step out of your car (little did you know the batery shorted to the frame, the tires insulating the car.) you step out and get a the worst static shock your camaro has ever given you. and find the "cheap" way into space lol

STATIC ELECTRICITY?? YOU GET MORE STATIC ELECTRICITY FROM RUBBING LEATHER SHOES ON YOUR CARPET THAN THE ESC OR BATTERIES WOULD PUT OUT. AMPERAGE ALONE DOES NOT HURT. YOU CAN HOLD A BATTERY ON BOTH TERMINALS AND HAVE 100 AMPS @ 12v AND YOU WONT GET A SHOCK AT ALL UNLESS YOU STICK YOUR TONGUE TO ONE TERMINAL--THEN YOU DESERVE TO BE FRIED!!!

now if you had two batterys and they both last for 20 sec and take 10 sec to charge using a dual rectifier 1 to swicth to the charged battery, and the 2 to to change the dead battery.

AGAIN IT SHOWS YOU DONT UNDERSTAND BATTERIES. THE INTERNAL RESISTANCE LIMITS HOW FAST YOU CAN RECHARGE ONE--REGARDLESS OF HOW HIGH THE AMPERAGE IS ON THE ALTERNATOR. I HAVE A 350 AMP ALTERNATOR AND THE BATTERIES WILL ONLY ACCEPT 60 AMPS EACH IN CHARGING CURRENT. CAPACITORS ARE A DIFFERENT MATTER. THEY HAVE NO LIMIT TO INRUSH CURRENT, SO THEY WILL CHARGE FASTER THEN DISCHARGE.

BTW you can't use my idae with out giving monye to this site seens how its copy proteched and all

BTW you have any idae how big those batterys are and the added wiegh the the car would make up for that 14 HP loss from the turbo in the other car....

I USE FOUR 10LB BATTERIES, THE ESC WEIGHS 38LB, AND SO THE ENTIRE KIT WEIGHS ABOUT 100-110LB--A TYPICAL TURBO KIT WEIGHS 100LB, AND THE TYPICAL VORTECH KIT WEIGHS 75LB.

but it goo to see new thing but i would say this might work better in a plane ? for now

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Originally posted by atsturbo:
do you have any idea what would happen to a person if they was working on this and that battery discharged 1 AMP can blow off your hand, i mean i have seen poeples arms blowen of from just working on there car amp (50 amps or so)

??? 1 AMP--I DONT THINK YOU UNDERSTAND ELECTRICITY--THE AVERAGE CAR STARTER ON A 70'S BIG BLOCK AMERICAN V8 DRAWS 350 AMPS. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???
THE NEW HYBRID CARS RUN 110VDC WITH A BANK OF A DOZEN 700 AMP BATTERIES.

1000 amps (even over 20 sec still 50 apms sec for 20 seconds) can you say BBQ and a 20foot area of firied motor head/?????

WORST CASE SCENARIO IS A TOASTED BATTERY--THE NEW THIN PLATE BATTERIES HAVE A BUILT-IN FUSIBLE LINK THAT RENDERS THE BATTERY USELESS IF SUSTAINED AMPS EXCEED THE RATED CURRENT. I DID BLOW UP SEVERAL OPEN CELL LEAD ACID BATTERIES YEARS AGO, BUT THE NEW OPTIMAS WILL SIMPLY SHORT OUT INTERNALLY. I HAVE DONE THAT TO TWO OF THEM, WHILE THE ODYSSEY BATTERIES ARE MUCH NEWER TECHNOLOGY.


i mean you step out of your car (little did you know the batery shorted to the frame, the tires insulating the car.) you step out and get a the worst static shock your camaro has ever given you. and find the "cheap" way into space lol

STATIC ELECTRICITY?? YOU GET MORE STATIC ELECTRICITY FROM RUBBING LEATHER SHOES ON YOUR CARPET THAN THE ESC OR BATTERIES WOULD PUT OUT. AMPERAGE ALONE DOES NOT HURT. YOU CAN HOLD A BATTERY ON BOTH TERMINALS AND HAVE 100 AMPS @ 12v AND YOU WONT GET A SHOCK AT ALL UNLESS YOU STICK YOUR TONGUE TO ONE TERMINAL--THEN YOU DESERVE TO BE FRIED!!!

now if you had two batterys and they both last for 20 sec and take 10 sec to charge using a dual rectifier 1 to swicth to the charged battery, and the 2 to to change the dead battery.

AGAIN IT SHOWS YOU DONT UNDERSTAND BATTERIES. THE INTERNAL RESISTANCE LIMITS HOW FAST YOU CAN RECHARGE ONE--REGARDLESS OF HOW HIGH THE AMPERAGE IS ON THE ALTERNATOR. I HAVE A 350 AMP ALTERNATOR AND THE BATTERIES WILL ONLY ACCEPT 60 AMPS EACH IN CHARGING CURRENT. CAPACITORS ARE A DIFFERENT MATTER. THEY HAVE NO LIMIT TO INRUSH CURRENT, SO THEY WILL CHARGE FASTER THEN DISCHARGE.

BTW you can't use my idae with out giving monye to this site seens how its copy proteched and all

BTW you have any idae how big those batterys are and the added wiegh the the car would make up for that 14 HP loss from the turbo in the other car....

I USE FOUR 10LB BATTERIES, THE ESC WEIGHS 38LB, AND SO THE ENTIRE KIT WEIGHS ABOUT 100-110LB--A TYPICAL TURBO KIT WEIGHS 100LB, AND THE TYPICAL VORTECH KIT WEIGHS 75LB.

but it goo to see new thing but i would say this might work better in a plane ? for now

when i said static i was talking about real static elec.... :rolleyes: im not that dumb
if you have ever road in a 4 gen fbody you would know just about every time you get it shocks you, on this time it would be static.

i took a 2 year course and electronics. .003 amps CAN KILL YOU, likly not really, .5 amps YES VOLTAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT KILLING YOU. 110V big whoop.

1 AMP will take you hand off.

didn't know your batterys had a current over load, in them sorry..... :cool:

now if you had two batterys and they both last for 20 sec and take 10 sec to charge using a dual rectifier 1 to swicth to the charged battery, and the 2 to to change the dead battery.

i dont think you got what i was say and your respons....... ummm arrrhhgg a dual retifer would work

1 on the alt
1 on the turbo thingy

say you start with both batterys full charged
you use battery one as it hit the point were it can not supply the current the rectifer would ****ch to the carge battery.

at that time the other rectifer would switch to the dead battery charging while your useing the other one

battery 2 is now dead so switch back to the charged battery 1.
now battery 2 is being charged and 1 is beging used again.

IT WAS JUST A ****ING IDEA MAN AND IT WAS ALL IN GOOD FUN NO ****ING REASON TO ****ING YELL AT ME.............