7psi numbers are in!!! WHOOHOO! I AM HAPPY! LINKS WITH PICS HAVE BEEN ADDED

[xjarayax]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jason Morgan:
tiago try more like 180rwhp atleast

with intake only i dynoed 165 with my exhast i would probaly dyno 175


cp dynoed 193 with his manual and i have a better flowing exhast them him but he is still almost 20 hp more then me

mod for mod radcat better dyno higher atleast a good 10-20 hp more for the same mod<hr></blockquote>


Well if you are going to compare like that, let's looking into:

1) Tuned (Batmans) vs. Nontuned (Tiago's Setup)
and
2) PRICE (Close to $5,000- SC vs ~$3,500- Turbo)

I don't mean to bash the kit I really admire all the work and planning and I'm sure the long hours spent working on the kit, I just don't think it's the all holy greatness that everyone makes it out to be.

[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: xjarayax ]</p>

[Tiago]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jason Morgan:
hold up tiago and everyone else


somethings yall have failed to rember is that batman has an auto transmission compared to radcats manual


a manual always lays down better number because of less parrasteic loss

and for the simple fact that even radcat said he was boosting 7-8 psi which was it if it was 7.5 then in boost alone going by batmans numbers is 8 hp right there

and i know batman has to be losing 20 hp honestly throught the auto because look at this

ironman24 dynoed 220hp with his baby cam stock heads

slacker69 dynoed 195 with one of the biggest cams around (he has mega lift compired to most cams) and heas ported and polished heads but hes is going through the big converter but still

15 or so lost hp in the auto plus 8 or so cause of boost alone
thats 23hp

250+23= 273hp so what thats 9 hp less then radcats dyno

also radcats dyno in 3rd gear in a manual give him a gearing advatange so his tq numbers could be inflated some and also tq is was defines hp so hp could be off some too

just some stuff yall arnt thinking about

still this is a solid kit if you want a supercharger<hr></blockquote>

I don't care what transmission either of them has, the results are still there. If the turbo car could have revved higher the difference would have been astonishing. And by the way the final numbers that we posted WERE in 4th gear so they are ACCURATE at the RPM we shut down at. 280 rwhp and 320 rwtq, don't talk out of your *** saying that the results are innacurate.

The prototype car was bone stock when we began both cars are 00s firebirds I believe so they should be comparable. Don't even try to compare Ironman's car to Kris'. We all know his car has issues right now. Not to mention who knows what his head porting did to the results? maybe somethign went wrong on that? I don't know but it could be possible. I have seen 5 speed cars with heads and cam make 195 too so thats not uncommon. Ironman's is the only one Ive seen higher.

boost was also about the same on both cars, the turbo spiked at 8-9 but settled at about 7 at the peak numbers, I was holding hte intake pipe on the throttle body by my hands during the dyno, lol.

FYI, dynoing in a lower gear will give LOWER numbers. Ive seen as much as 30 rw hp/tq difference when going from 3rd to 4th on a dyno, the tq numbers were specially affected.

I think about it all, I dont' talk without thinking.
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Tiago]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jason Morgan:
tiago try more like 180rwhp atleast

with intake only i dynoed 165 with my exhast i would probaly dyno 175


cp dynoed 193 with his manual and i have a better flowing exhast them him but he is still almost 20 hp more then me

mod for mod radcat better dyno higher atleast a good 10-20 hp more for the same mod<hr></blockquote>

youcan't compare like that, some cars are just stronger then the others youare trying to compare to some of the strongest cars. You can't assume everey m5 makes 190 rwhp with intake and exaust.

[jmorgan]

tiago your being ignorent now

you know dam well a manuel car losses atlest 15-20 hp less then that of an auto

"Now for the numbers. In 3rd gear I was making 282.5 hp and 311.1 tq. Right after this we ran it in 4th so the car was really hot. We had to run it twice since the first time the connector popped off. Once we got a clean run in 4th it pulled 278.1 hp and 320.9 tq. Didn't get to take it to redline because of the speed limiter."

you did dyno it in 3rd and you did post the numbers i didnt want to argue with you on your 4th gear pull because all i would hear is blah blah it wasnt to redline

you are being ignorent and i know why you are stop the **** cause you know i am right

plan and simple a a turbo better dyno more period

manual car with the same mods will always dyno higher

you dont need a whisper lid or exhast on your car before a turbo because all that **** is replaced anyways

wanna compair number im sure radcats car would of put down atleast 175 hp stock batman probly put down 155 hp thats still a 20 hp advantage he has a weak 3.8 i dynoed 165 with intake so if i got 5 hp off the intake that would be 160 for me stock and if his is week to begin with then i know he aint gonna be near me


yea batman had mods when he put the charger on because you know he needs them

still with his mods radcat would of atleast dynoed 10 more then him period besides
the fact that radcat had more boost period radcat didnt say he had 6 psi and dynoed 280 he said 7-8 in my book that means 7.5 so he atleast was puting 8-10 hp down more then batman cause of boost alone


ohh and when the hell did the price of the kit come in here we are talking performance price has nothing to do with this

and if you wanna be technical i can make a ver nice turbo kit for 2k that would lay better numbers down then your 3K kit so dont even go there on the price thing that was never an argument also

hrm who in the hell said batmans car is tuned
ummmmmmmm if it is it hasnt been said if its not then thats a real shame that radcat put down some ****y number then compaired to batmans car


batmans car dynoed 250 to radcats 278 thats 28 hp less 15-20 hp was lost because of his trans plan and simple

if batmans car was tuned with a wide band then yes the numbers would be low but if its his more or less stock computer (if timing and fuel was not messed with then it was not tuned)

then yea i would say batmans kit put out 10 less hp with tuning but ummmmmmmmmmmmmm i know knobody here knows yet we will see when batman posts back

[xjarayax]

Price is not an arguement? If price didn't matter none of us would be driving a V6 in the first place- I can guarentee that.

[jmorgan]

ummmm if you didnt notice we have been talking perofmance what the kits layed down not anything else and how can you compair 2 kits of which neither is in full production its a mute point

why do people with ls1's have superchargers when the turbos tend to lay better numbers down prefrence maybe why dont yall stop hating and say something good about the kit

[v6maro]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by xjarayax:
Price is not an arguement? If price didn't matter none of us would be driving a V6 in the first place- I can guarentee that.<hr></blockquote>

well then look at quality...
this kit is very solid!
when I saw tiago's front end i almost puked, not to beat on u man, u got a nice kit, but, your front clip was cut to hell.
not to mention a warranty!!!
hell, it's going to be endorsed by ATfu&lt;kinI
besides, Ryan's car has always been low on the dyno, and I don't know if he was on a mustangdyno or a dynojet, if it was mustang then this is going to be a whole new arguement.
-Steve

[Mighty Thor]

I can't believe it! Is this Jason Morgan!? :D

Very good point [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[TOBY]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tiago:


youcan't compare like that, some cars are just stronger then the others youare trying to compare to some of the strongest cars. You can't assume everey m5 makes 190 rwhp with intake and exaust.<hr></blockquote>

Your right, lets compare other things. Look at Mach's quality and workmanship compared to your bird$h!t f**Kd up @$$ welds. How much muffler piping did you use anyways to cob that system together??? Hell to fix that mess and make it look as good as the kit Mach Performance has is going to cost the customer an addition 2000.00 That would make your kit cost 5500.00 well over the cost of Batman's kit. Oh... and where are you going to pull that waranty from? I hope you got as much $$$ to cover you *** as you have muffler piping. I've seen high school kids in autoshop gas weld with a coat hanger better than your mig welds. You know what they say, don't drink and weld.

Alright...now...lets get serious. Lets see some air fuel numbers from both kits. Also Lets see some dyno sheets... If Batman is posting his, you should post yours. Any Joe Shmoe can post numbers, i want to see them. Oh, and how many passes were you able to run? Batman ran 20 back to back pulls. Thats pretty impressive and the fact he got consistant pulls every time. Oh yeah, Thats right...you couldnt do more than a few cause you were holding your kit together while dynoing it. I hope with all that muffler pipes that there is room to put you under Redcat's hood to hold it together when he goes to the track. Hows that open waste gate sound cause from the pics i was looking at, it vents to the atmosphere and must sound like @$$. Oh and a 170HP M5 V6???? no wonder he was looking for a turbo kit.

This is something i pulled off your other posts

The reason we ran in third was to get an overview of the power curve, we can't rev all the way through in 4th because of the speed limiter. In past tests I have seen as much as 30 rwhp differece in dyno numbers when dynoing in 3rd to 4th comparing. So that 4th gear pull might have pulled out as much as 310 rwhp if we could have revved.

We were having probs with the connector on the tb coming off. Turns out it had a small rip in it so I was only making 7-8psi.

I'm really hoping that when we get all the boost leaks taken car of and the car is running cool at around 10psi we can hit well into the 300hp range.

Okay, lets also bring some attention to the fact that You are saying he is only getting 7-8psi because he had a hole somewhere? What was the boost gauge reading during the pulls? Did you have a boost gauge or wasn't there any room left in the car with all the muffler piping?

Whats all this bs about running your M5 in 3rd??? Are you saying your hitting the 105MPH speed limiter at 4th gear??? I find that hard to believe so prove me wrong. Why don;t you run it in 4th like its supposed to be and give us some real numbers and not some hot air from those ballooned numbers you gave us.

Oh... and you with 10psi is predicting the same HP with a turbo as Batman's kit with an SC??? Ummm ill fork out the extra dough so my kit doesn't look like @$$. Some of us want to be able to open our hoods in public and not be standing next to it with a bag over our heads.

Btw Stefan, I didn't mean to offend you the other day. My only excuse is that i was drinking the same beer Tiago was while he was doing his welds.

[mattsv6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> ohh and when the hell did the price of the kit come in here we are talking performance price has nothing to do with this
<hr></blockquote>
i think that if a 3500 dollar kit is putting out more horsepower and a ton more torque then a 5000 dollar kit somehting is wrong. i am not goin to talk crap for turbo's or against blowers. both cars need too be tuned, both cars were on the dyno one time, and both kits are prototypes. so i think we need too see the big picture. i want too see bat's car in 6 months. what he has put down for numbers after figuring out the way the car likes the blower. we could argue this until the day we die, but it isnt gonna make the car with less hp get more! i dont see why people have too mock others cars because of how the kit was installed either. that is jsut a dumbass move! i am wasting my time cause someone is gonna argue with me now cause i spoke. if you can build a better turbo for 2 grand then do it. im sure you will beat tiago
[img]graemlins/dunce.gif[/img]

[mattsv6]

man, are you f-ing kidding me??? who the hell are you to talk so much crap about tiago?? if the kit looks shi**y, dont buy it. muffler pipe, big deal, it is a prototype before it is all mandrel bent. i hope that you arent gonna jsut post nonsense on this board. we have plenty of people that do it already!

[Mighty Thor]

I definantly wanted to see those numbers. 250 rwhp is pretty good for a 7lbs intercooled SC.

In a way I am not at all disappointed with my Powerdyne.

At the article above this site. Vector Performance first dynoed the Camaro, which is pure stock, at 156 rwhp. After installing the Powerdyne SC, it dynoed to 254 rwhp with a 8.65lbs of non-intercooled boost. The belt definately didn't slip on this one.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is better. We all know that is not, especially with belt slippage and all. But it made me even more determine is solving this slippage and reinstall my alcohol/water injection. Then have it dynoed and run at the track.

[Speed]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by v6maro:


Uhmmm, how can you say Tiago's kit is safer without even having proof??? Also, how do you KNOW the efficiency is better on the turbo, granted, it probably is, but, you have no proof, not to mention, just because it is more efficient does not mean that the air coming in is cooler. :rolleyes:
-Steve<hr></blockquote>

I haven't read any posts beneith this. I just had to reply quickly. I know Tiago's kit is safer because I designed the turbocharger for both cars. You say your self "granted, it probably is". Well after doing this for a number of years I feel safe in making an educated guess. So it appears we both agree it's probably safe to assume that the efficiencies are higher on the turbocharger.

The last part is where I've got to educate you a little bit. Compressor efficiency refers to exactly how much energy is used to move the air and how much is wasted in heat. Sinse no conversion of energy can be 100% efficient some of that energy is wasted as heat. If a turbocharger is 78% efficient moving 42lbs of air at 14.503 PSI (1 bar) that means that that 2 percent of the energy used to spin the compressor wheel in those conditions was wasted as heat. The result of this action is called density ratio.

Further, I did not come on this board with an insulting tone. The roll eyes thing is insult and unjustified.

[TOBY]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mattsv6:
man, are you f-ing kidding me??? who the hell are you to talk so much crap about tiago?? if the kit looks shi**y, dont buy it. muffler pipe, big deal, it is a prototype before it is all mandrel bent. i hope that you arent gonna jsut post nonsense on this board. we have plenty of people that do it already!<hr></blockquote>

So answer me this...If Batmans kit is proto-type and yours is too, what is your disfuction with the welder? I hope to GOD to pay someone else to build it cause you guys can't even squirt gun weld :eek:

Proto-type or not those are just piss poor welds. None of you custom kit builders have ever mentioned WARRANTY...I only read that Mach/Batman kit will have ATI endorsements and warranty with it. What will you guys give??? Your right...I not going to buy your kit you have failed to supply proof that it's of quality and safe to install without worry of improper fuel delivery. When I called ATI they highly recommended Mach's shop, I called to make sure for myself. If a company as large as ATI is willing to recommend the products he builds outside of ATI's facilty, that must say something about his work.

Now I'm not here just to talk nonsense about anyone, however I've been reading this for awhile and I've yet to read Mach Perf or Batman raging on anyone elses kit. Are you doing it because his quality is superior to yours and he can give a guarantee you can't.

HAVE A NICE DAY [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Speed]

There have been a number of amusing things mentioned above. Too many to comment on each one. But there are a few I need to work on. Tiago has his own business and how he handles his kits is up to him. However I expect he will handle them somewhat the same as I am. My turbochargers are Garrett based units. Garrett is a large company. My kits will be warrenteed. However, just like anything, if you install it wrong or misuse it, your out on your own. That's the case no matter what manufacture you go with. Radcat's car looks completely stock. The y-pipe is was welded by me and will be reproduced by a professional bending shop. All the flanges and joints will be laser cut.

Radcat's car is still too new to offer durability but this kit will be as durable as any. My LT1 has over 150 passes, has gone 128 in the 1/4 under less than ideal conditions. Hell I drove it 900 miles round trip and dynoed it 1/2 way in the middle of that. That same engineering and philosophy went into Radcat's kit. Tiago, who designed his own kit in Houston has driven the car for over a year including numerous trips between Stillwater and Houston. The reliability is there. If he adopts my intercooler design into his kit, the open front end will no longer be a problem.

There is obviously some history behind the arguements and comments directed at Tiago which I'm not aware of, nor do I care to be part of. I think the supercharger kit is a fine looking kit. Radcat's is a first draft. It will undergo refine ment and the final result will have each peice being produced by manufactures who specialize in the field. The output will be exceptional and the price will be excellent. Beyond that, there is nothing else to discuss.