7psi numbers are in!!! WHOOHOO! I AM HAPPY! LINKS WITH PICS HAVE BEEN ADDED

[hou-tex-six]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bliggida:
Turbochargers don't make more power pound for pound of boost compared to supercharged cars. Nor are they faster.

The supercharger doesn't face near the heat the turbocharger does. Hot intake air temps kill horsepower.

As much as people seem to think that the supercharger's belt drag costs horsepower. Its not nearly as much as some people think. When compared to turbochargers of the same boost level the dyno figures are almost identical, and that is including the drag a supercharger has that a turbo doesn't - largely due to horsepower you are robbed from using a turbocharger and the heat they cause.

On the dragstrip, all things identical a supercharged car will pull ahead first and contintue to stay there, since they make boost off-idle - no lag, and continue to pull through redline.

Ultimately, when you go all out, Superchargers make more power. Show me a turbocharged car that makes more than 2,500 horsepower. Where as supercharged cars are upwards of 6,000 horsepower.

If Turbochargers made more power and they were faster, professionals would use them...they don't.

You can't look at the superharger and turbocharger and simply say that the turbocharger makes (more power) boost without the belt so there is no drag. You aren't taking into account the fact that air intake temperatures are ungodly on a turbocharger. Heat rises in superchargers too, but they are nothing in the face of a turbocharged cars intake temps.<hr></blockquote>


I seriously do not know from where or whom your getting your information....and i dont know how else to put this... but it makes you look like a complete idiot.

Cp

[Deuce Bigs]

theoretically 7lbs of boost will make the same power whether it be from a super or turbo it's just when other factors come into play that you see differences.

[Tiago]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hou-tex-six:



I seriously do not know from where or whom your getting your information....and i dont know how else to put this... but it makes you look like a complete idiot.

Cp<hr></blockquote>


WORD


<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

theoretically 7lbs of boost will make the same power whether it be from a super or turbo it's just when other factors come into play that you see differences.

<hr></blockquote>


no

[xjarayax]

This is so hilarious. [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

[ June 06, 2003: Message edited by: xjarayax ]</p>

[MrCoffee]

thats probably one of the flattest tourque curves I've ever seen! Thats awsome!

[LordoftheBling]

numbers are low in my opinion. i would have expected much more tq. but i dont know half of what bliggada does [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

[PewterBird]

Batman, what is the next step with the 7 lb kit after you get your beta tester results?

[ June 06, 2003: Message edited by: PewterBird ]</p>

[nocutt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
Turbochargers don't make more power pound for pound of boost compared to supercharged cars. Nor are they faster.<hr></blockquote>

This is very vague and not really worth your time...you have to be specific. Roots, Centrifugal, what turbocharger? what trim...?


<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>The supercharger doesn't face near the heat the turbocharger does. Hot intake air temps kill horsepower. <hr></blockquote>

Misconception!! Hot intake air temps is universal to turbochargers and superchargers. You compress air, you heat it period...it is an inherent character and to even add more to the bias...you can run a large turbocharger...but then again I guess you can also run a larger blower...we are still back where we started...misconception! with the correct heat management...this even shouldn't be an issue. The roots Sc is even worse...


<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> As much as people seem to think that the supercharger's belt drag costs horsepower. Its not nearly as much as some people think. When compared to turbochargers of the same boost level the dyno figures are almost identical, and that is including the drag a supercharger has that a turbo doesn't - largely due to horsepower you are robbed from using a turbocharger and the heat they cause.<hr></blockquote>

Somehow I feel you don't fully understand FI. BTW show me this dyno...No way or fashion can the dynos of this supposed turbocharger vs Sc be "almost" identical...simple they operate like night and day even a CSc which will like to mimick a turbocharger's torque curve will not come close. Their torque curves are very different, one is flatter while the other is peaky, how are this "almost" the same?


<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>On the dragstrip, all things identical a supercharged car will pull ahead first and contintue to stay there, since they make boost off-idle - no lag, and continue to pull through redline. <hr></blockquote>

If you are often at the dragstrip I am sure you have seen a phenomenon called powerbraking! You can leave the line with boost as a matter of fact...you will even make full boost before the SC'd car gets into full boost, even while on the street, you can boostbrake so lag it is there but is hardly noticeable...I am assuming all things also remaining equal...

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Ultimately, when you go all out, Superchargers make more power. Show me a turbocharged car that makes more than 2,500 horsepower. Where as supercharged cars are upwards of 6,000 horsepower. <hr></blockquote>

Ultimately it isn't about how much HP, rather hp (power) :D isplacement ratio. Look at F1 cars, look into the grand prix cars...NB: In the 80's, the GP series only used engines displacing 1.5L, 2 liters at most...power was an outstanding 1300 hp that is about 870 hp/L show me what was the displacement of this 6000 hp Sc car. Ultimately apples and oranges...

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> If Turbochargers made more power and they were faster, professionals would use them...they don't. <hr></blockquote>

As it was already stated, they have been banned by many sanctioning bodies, due their safety. NB: Not safety due to durability but rather due to their ease in escalating power...just with a touch of a button, one can go from 6psi to 30psi...it was just that easy and it had to be curbed...

[QUOTE] You can't look at the superharger and turbocharger and simply say that the turbocharger makes (more power) boost without the belt so there is no drag. You aren't taking into account the fact that air intake temperatures are ungodly on a turbocharger. Heat rises in superchargers too, but they are nothing in the face of a turbocharged cars intake temps.[QUOTE]

Too many variables...like I stated above, but if we even out the playing field. same engine, same tranny...down to the correct compressor trim on both engines...a turbo will output more as far as power is concerned...Sorry you cannot changed the nature of the beast, the turbo just creates a larger torque curve. remember an SC doesn't get to max boost till redline (the engine's redline) a (properly setup)turbo will be at full boost about a third of the engines power band...this is excluding the fact that power is been robbed to make power with an SC...

[Speed]

Well I am a professional kit builder. I don't use vulgarity and I do try to help people but I also try to correct missinformation when I see it. Firstly, I can't agree more with Mach's assessment of owning your own business. People really believe you are super-human.

Next, to help one of the members who believes heat is a bane of all turbochargers, allow me to contradict that. I am assuming you are refereing to radiant heat from the exhaust system. Actually, most centrifigual kits place their compressors in closer proximity to the exhaust system than any of the kits I've designed. If you are refering to heat transfered from the turbine housing to the compressor housing, a given volume of air is only in the compressor housing for a matter of milliseconds. This would be compaired to waving your hand as fast as you can through a candles flame and measuring the heat absorbed. All matter heats when it is compressed. For simplicity's sake, We will refer to both a supercharger and turbocharger as a centrifugal compressor; which they are. In the supercharger world, you can choose from only one of several compressor configurations. When using garrett based turbochargers, there are literally dozens of compressors in a given family and more often than not, several families will work. This gives you a huge selection of compressors to fine tune. Also, turbocharger compressors generally are more efficient over a broader range that supercharger compressors. Exam the compressor maps for both.

To give you some real world statistics, my LT1 car put down 484 horsepower and 540 ft/lbs of torque with my turbo kit. That run was aborted at 4700 rpm because I still had stock injectors and the engine was cold. If you will notice, the peaks were going up as fast as they were going forward. The boost spiked to 10psi so I shut it off.




I spent the 15 seconds it takes to turn the boost down on the boost controller and put this run down. Notice the better lowend. After some further testing, I've verified that LT1s need to be warm but not hot to perform at their peak. The LS1s like being cool. In anycase here are the results of 7psi to redline.



This car baselined 260hp and 298ft/lbs of torque. Many of you will notice the standard numbers. The conversion to SAE is 1.03 for both pulls. The funny thing about these pulls was I was using a 1LE rubber intake elbow at the time and and shreaded it on the trip down (over 100 miles one way for the dyno day, talk about reliablity). When we got there we wrapped enough tape, string, and hose clamps to seal the leak, it added another 3/4in to the diameter of the elbow. After the second run, I found that the rubber elbow had blown up like a balloon, pushed the hose clamps and string out of the way and tore the duct tape in half. Ooops. I've sinse changed to a metal elbow!

Measuring the heat at the intercooler discharge with a thermal analyser (heat gun), the varience between discharge temp and ambient temp was less than 10%. The extreme efficency is what is allowing 12psi runs pushing 130mph on an internally stock engine that has 10.4:1 compression. The car weighs about 3900 lbs with driver.

Beyond that, the spool rumor is an excellent one. While I'll give you that a supercharger should see boost first, it's not always the case. In addition, from a stop, a 2 step rev limiter can build boost on the line. With some practice you can reach full boost an instant after you launch. From a roll, you can build boost by holding your foot on the break and giving it some extra gas. Even if your supercharger reacts faster, which is not always the case, You still have to pressurize the induction track and intake manifold before you achive "boost". With break boosting, it's already there.

It was mentioned that supercharged engines make the most power. Unfortunately that's only accurate in circles of racing that ban turbo use. The fastest street legal car in the world, built by Mike Morgan used 4 turbochargers. His configuration was later banned by that class to allow a "more competitive spirit". That translates to noone could beat him and they lost participants. The most power engines in the world, those that power ships, natural gas and oil pumps ect, use turbochargers. I've seen them big enough for someone to walk into the compressor inlet with ease.

Anyway, I got a little long winded. Sorry. I just like this subject. I've got to finish prepping the car for a dyno run Saturday. More show and tell than anything but I am looking to make 550/600 on an internally stock LT1 and if I do it, I own the record for most powerful internally stock LT1 with a poweradder.

[Tyler]

OMFG WHY CANT YOU GUYS STAY ON TOPIC...ON THE TOPIC OF BATMANS KIT!! NOT TIAGO's TURBO KIT! NOT STEFANS SUPERCHARGER KIT&lt; AND NOT THE POWERDYNE KIT!

this is getting lame how u guys are acting.. im 18, and even I see you guys as pretty lame and immature.

like said before, if you want to go on about whats better, turbo or super. make a new thread. dont take over BATMANS thread like that.

at least 1 person stayed on topic. thank you mr.coffee.. that is one hell of a flat torque curve

[DEE97GTP]

What kind of timing are you running!!!!!!!!

I wondered where everyone was, they were in here fighting.

Since I am sort of an "outsider" to this site, I think I have a unique view and am very disappointed.

1. A turbo will outpeform an SC in most cases on a street car.
2. Tiago's kit is much further off from a production version than Mach's. I commend you tiago, I am a DIY guy, and doing something like that is bad@ss.
3. DHP has been known to tune over 40HP in some modded GTPs. So tuning can be very important.
4. I hear all the time about no aftermarket for you guys. This is a very small market, hate to say it. But when people decide to release something to production, they often research the market. I would say if many people were looking at this post, they would have no desire to spend R&D to make something that may be graciously accepted as another option or may be crucified. I am all for getting the truth out about stuff, but this is ridiculous.
[img]graemlins/thumbsdown.gif[/img]

DEE

[ June 06, 2003: Message edited by: DEE97GTP ]</p>

[Deuce Bigs]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tiago:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

theoretically 7lbs of boost will make the same power whether it be from a super or turbo it's just when other factors come into play that you see differences.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

no<hr></blockquote>


how is this a no? an engine doesn't know the difference of where the 7 psi is coming from. when i mean theoretically i mean doesn't take into account belt drag or heat or anything else. it's just 7psi. you don't have seperate "turbo psi" and "super psi" you just measure what psi is going into the engine.

[HAZ-Matt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Deuce Bigs:
how is this a no? an engine doesn't know the difference of where the 7 psi is coming from. when i mean theoretically i mean doesn't take into account belt drag or heat or anything else. it's just 7psi. you don't have seperate "turbo psi" and "super psi" you just measure what psi is going into the engine.<hr></blockquote>

Sure you do because to get the 7psi with the supercharger you have to take into account the power loss from the belt. If you can make some kind of magical supercharger that drives itself and is independent of engine rpm then you could compete with (and overtake) a turbo. Although this new magical supercharger might be more like a turbo... Hmmm it would probbaly be so great that they'd have to give it a new name like hypersupercharger, which would then be shortened to hypercharger or hyper (and that would be an interesting parallel of turbosupercharger evolution from belt driven superchargers).

Looks like I also need to repost this yet again:

Turbo vs Supercharger

EDIT: with all the turbo vs supercharger nonsense I forgot to say that it's great that we finally have a good intercooled supercharger option. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ June 06, 2003: Message edited by: HAZ-Matt ]</p>

[malloynx#2]

lol. gay gay gay.

[hawgs]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by malloynx#2:
lol. gay gay gay.<hr></blockquote>

[img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img] couldnt agree more.