Turbo vs. blower debate w/in

[HAZ-Matt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mattsv6:

we are trying to have a reasonable debate about turbos - blowers and you are flaming people like this? i really took offense to this considering i design about 10 cams per day at my work for the racing motors that i build. i am sure that others "including dominic who you used as an example for no reason" are kind of pissed at that statement. <hr></blockquote>

I am not flaming anyone, just making a statement. You are jumping to conclusions about my statements that are unwarranted. I failed to remember the crop of "new" members that just showed up in the past few months for no reason other than the fact that they are interested in this market.

Half a year ago or so there was a thread asking about turbo cam specs. Basically nobody could decide what to do, and the limited amount of people that responded where going on things that they had "heard" without any real knowledge. This is what Arctc Wolf did. I have read many posts by Dominic, and I respect him. It's also unclear whether or not Dominic made any statements regarding a turbo cam. We only have one person that claims to have been told by another that such and such is good. Essentially I was disagreeing witht eh post made by Arctc Wolf, and felt that it was necessary to mention that I can see where Dominic might be coming from if in fact he made such a claim. That is why there is a disclaimer at the beginning of my statement.

This was all fine until you try to make an issue. Instead of speaking up "I know how to design a turbo cam" you say "I'm all pissed off now." Guess I need to review all the credentials of the new membership so that I won't make generalizations in the future.

Then you get pissed off for the rest of the membership. Let them get pissed off at me of their own accord.

Let's look at the facts:

The fact are that nobody here has much experience with turbos, vendors aside.

And unfortunately I have a hard time considering / remembering all the new "members," especially those who may or may not own a V6 fbody. I'll try to keep that in mind. But in the mean time, try not to get too excited.

[ June 12, 2003: Message edited by: HAZ-Matt ]</p>

[HAZ-Matt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hou-tex-six:
I believe HAZ-MATT and Arctic Wolf answered this.

Cp<hr></blockquote>
While I set out to correct statements that are false, I do not claim to be able to prove the mental capabilities of anyof the membership.

Bliggida: inefficiency means heat production. The higher the inefficiency the greater the heat production. The amount of heat transfered between the turbine and the compressor sides of the turbo is not enough to make up for the extra heat that superchargers make given their lower efficiencies. This is true for every type of supercharger regardless of compressor design.

Also, your argument about superchargers making more power because they use more power is nonsensical. Let's assume for a moment that you have two cars setup identically, except that one has a supercharger and one has a turbo. Now, both of them are making the same amount of power, so by your argument the supercahrger out powers a turbo because it has to overcome it's own parasitic loss. Unfortunatley, in order to do this, the supercharger would have to run at higher boost than the turbo. There is no other way around it. Essentially you are comparing apples to oranges. At identical boost levels, the turbo vehicle will put more power to the wheels than any supercharger would.

The most correct statement made so far is that you cannot state whether or not a turbo or supercharger is better. That is one of the few bits of useful information in this thread. We can really only answer specific questions about design, and in the end the user must deside what they want for their application.

[ June 12, 2003: Message edited by: HAZ-Matt ]</p>

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

hmm, this debate seems quite confusing, i do want killer 60' times. but i dont want my power to dimenish quickly. ill have to take my chances on one of the kits by the end of summer as a plan to get one. I just drove a beautiful 2000 corvette a few days ago, im in love with the LS1, i figure i will drop around 3 to 4 grand into the v6 camaro, since i can find superchargers cheap for less then 2500, i will just upgrade my suspension and torque converter, buy a cheaper exhaust/headers, ill play around with the car next summer then sell it, and buy a LS1 camaro, cause i have to admit, the v6 isnt doin it for me man. :( that v8 LS1 is friggin unstoppable [img]graemlins/burnout.gif[/img] a stroker kit or just simple mods would make the car a killer, and the WS6 Ram Air II hood kit and ground effects makes the car look super agressive, almost like a ZL1, then put some GTS headlight/tailight covers and good headers w/ cutout valves with a borla exhaust, people will fear that car. it would sound so incredible and make well over 400 HP, no ricer would dare rev there engine next to you.

[mattsv6]

i never siad i was pissed at you or anyone else for that matter. i jsut wanted to make it known that there are people on here that would no how do design a good cam for turbo's. it is really tough to get one that works right for the size of the motor and turbo combined. but, this is a live and learn experience. and i do have a good amount of experince with turbo cars and trucks. there is a certain 7 second small block mustang that i help with. i think that is good enough experience for me. lol. but i am happy that we ar having a decent debate about this subject. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[nocutt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>The fact are that nobody here has much experience with turbos, vendors aside <hr></blockquote>

:D You want to put some money on that?

The fact is few want to spend...but many will love to bad mouth... then their are those who want a FREE kit or/and FREE R&D? :mad:

[HAZ-Matt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nocutt:


:D You want to put some money on that?

The fact is few want to spend...but many will love to bad mouth... then their are those who want a FREE kit or/and FREE R&D? :mad: <hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry nocutt, you were basically our only real source of turbo knowledge until a few months ago.
[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[All_InTheRED]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bliggida:

I can show you several examples of 40 PSI blowers. I have yet to see a 40 PSI turbocharger.


Superchargers only see peak efficiency for a moment? Um no, Superchargers also have blow-off valves, and wastegates that will regulate boost too. So you can have it come in a lower RPM and keep it producing boost at full efficiency on into your upper RPM.

The same point can be made about a Turbocharger making just as much power as a supercharger despite being heated and subsequently heating the air intake temperature to insane amounts it still makes the same amount of power relatively in a street motor.

However, there is a distinction between what we drive on the road and race engines. Ultimately you will make more power with a supercharger. In theory a turbocharger could make more power as the PSI increase until it would blow itself up (thank the wastegate) however, this theory has never been proven to be a more effective way of making power.

And again. The question is not which is better the supercharger or the turbocharger. If that is the question you are asking you are asking the wrong one.


.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HAHAHAHAHA...your funny

You've never seen a turbo make over 40psi???

Go drive any new Ford PowerStroke, Dodge Cummins or Cheve Duramax....and your there! They make 17-25psi STOCK!

I routinely run over 36psi (boost gauge goes to 60psi) on my 99 F-250 SuperDuty Crew Cab Powerstroke....which runs 13.98@102 btw with 414rwhp (2700 rpm)/912ft.lbs (1600rpm)

And that is mild....lol

There are Dodge's running sequential twin turbos pushing 130-150psi making 703rwhp and some more than that even (yes we are NUTZ). Most single turbo's are running at 45-52psi on a Cummins and 30-52 on Powerstrokes.

And keep in mind...yes the turbo has some lag which can tuned out with the chips we run.....but its 100% FREE Hp....nothing taken from the crank.

I was running a Garrett GTP-38 turbo....now a Holset H2E (HX50) turbo...which is the stock turbo off a 11 liter Cummins (which is in 80% of the newer city buses)

Its simply what do you have room for....and what do you plan to do with the car/truck.

But if you haven't seen a 40psi turbo....you need to get out more

[Mister_Johnny99]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Theyre developing one for the LS1 Fbody, like the one on the vettes, but they've been having problems with the firewall getting in the way.<hr></blockquote>
Who cares about the LS1.
What about a MagnaCharger for the 3800?

[FirebirdGT]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mister_Johnny99:

Who cares about the LS1.
What about a MagnaCharger for the 3800?<hr></blockquote>


They have no plans, no market. It would have to be custom - you're on your own.

[pigglyroot]

if the 3.4 / 3.8 had the market of an LS1 there wouldnt be any fabbing...no magnacharger for yall will become available...thats one thing i LOVE about the lightning, such a VAST demand, prices have to be competitve and with a fairly competent stock blower, pulleys and chip (which i have both already) open it up quite a bit

[John_D.]

Here's a link with some notes comparing/contrasting sc and turbos.

http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?id=19

[Arctc Wolf]

Haz-matt, I've done more than just ask other's opinions on topics. I do actually read and research things, which is why I know what I'm talking about. if u choose to listen and take what i have to say into account, cool. If not, ur decision. I will keep talking about this stuff for those who wish to learn more.

[pigglyroot]

http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?id=19 that site 0wn3d everything bliggida has tried to spew out of his mouth

[Bliggida]

P'Root I used that article in my previous posts to help show some advantages of superchargers. I wouldn't use an article that 'owned' me.

Anyway, a lot of you are simply misinterpreting what I am saying. I have made it clear many times when I am talking about race engines and when I am talking about street engines, and I've also made it clear when a supercharger or turbocharger is better (in specific istances) yet some of you to continue to read "Bliggida: Superchargers rule everything" and that is not the case.

As far as blow-off valves, and wastegates, while they are called different names with superchargers they do the same basic functions. With a supercharger they are more commonly referred to as a Pop-off valve and bypass valves. I only try tried to correspond them to what is available on a turbocharger since this seems to be what majority of those who are angry with me seem to be knowledgeable about.

You are free to say that I am wrong, explain why, and produce data to prove your point, however I personally don't care for the immature name calling and rude comments. I treat you better than that, I expect the same back.

Moderators character attacks should not be tolerated, even if for only moral reasons, but it is a part of our signing agreement we are all binded to. You should be upholding this

I am more than happy to debate with any of you, and when I do so it is in an manner. I won't debate with you however, if character attacks and name calling are going to exist. Lets all act like the s we are. If you disagree I am more than happy to hear what you have to say and why. You don't have to be rude.
Also, I feel that some of you do not take what I have to say within the correct context. I would ask you, to take a little more time to understand fully what I am saying before making your assumptions. As I can tell you already have the wrong idea (about me) and you allow that to effect the way you treat me. That is not a responsible action. Chances are we agree on the very same things, you may simply be seing my non-biased side playing s' advocate in some situations. Again, I've clearly stated the differances between race and street engines and their applications yet some have lumped them into one category to 'flame' me. You take what I say out of context, you it against me to justify calling names, being rude or insulting. We don't need any of that. We are s.

[gregmondro]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bliggida:
P'Root I used that article in my previous posts to help show some advantages of superchargers. I wouldn't use an article that 'owned' me.

Anyway, a lot of you are simply misinterpreting what I am saying. I have made it clear many times when I am talking about race engines and when I am talking about street engines, and I've also made it clear when a supercharger or turbocharger is better (in specific istances) yet some of you to continue to read "Bliggida: Superchargers rule everything" and that is not the case.

As far as blow-off valves, and wastegates, while they are called different names with superchargers they do the same basic functions. With a supercharger they are more commonly referred to as a Pop-off valve and bypass valves. I only try tried to correspond them to what is available on a turbocharger since this seems to be what majority of those who are angry with me seem to be knowledgeable about.

You are free to say that I am wrong, explain why, and produce data to prove your point, however I personally don't care for the immature name calling and rude comments. I treat you better than that, I expect the same back.

Moderators character attacks should not be tolerated, even if for only moral reasons, but it is a part of our signing agreement we are all binded to. You should be upholding this

I am more than happy to debate with any of you, and when I do so it is in an manner. I won't debate with you however, if character attacks and name calling are going to exist. Lets all act like the s we are. If you disagree I am more than happy to hear what you have to say and why. You don't have to be rude.
Also, I feel that some of you do not take what I have to say within the correct context. I would ask you, to take a little more time to understand fully what I am saying before making your assumptions. As I can tell you already have the wrong idea (about me) and you allow that to effect the way you treat me. That is not a responsible action. Chances are we agree on the very same things, you may simply be seing my non-biased side playing s' advocate in some situations. Again, I've clearly stated the differances between race and street engines and their applications yet some have lumped them into one category to 'flame' me. You take what I say out of context, you it against me to justify calling names, being rude or insulting. We don't need any of that. We are s.<hr></blockquote>


ditto

Tbyrne or Summit? :D