Turbo vs. blower debate w/in

[nocutt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Swift_3800_F-Body:
ok, as i see it, if you are a newbie to cars, go with the supercharger, its easy to maintain, and will give you a good ammount of boost and fun. Without having to know much.

If you are comfortable and knowledgeable with your car, a turbo is a better suited application for your cars.

The myth about supercharger getting boost as low as 1500 and turbo's having the engine to rev to get boost is totally inaccurate as what iv seen on this board, you might get boost from a supercharger as low as 1500 rpms or somewhere low, but consider this, with a supercharger you are not getting full boost at low rpms, you only will see small boost, as you reach higher rpms your boost will increase with rpm.

Say you have a supercharger pushing 10 psi, im guessing that you wont reach peak until you are close to redline. 10 PSI at 6000 rpm, thats pretty crappy if you ask me. Are you going to redline it down the street every day? [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

6000 rpms all day to get full boost isnt exactly what i would want to do. With a turbo on the other hand, you might not get boost right away at low rpm, but you can create full boost around 2500-3500 rpm with a turbocharger, thats FULL BOOST, with of course the correct turbocharger setup, i recommend calling experts and asking them the correct application for our 3800 v6, you dont want to blow your engine up or leave yourself spooling forever and ever.

i would only recommend a supercharger for two types of people

1.) for people that want a quick boost application because of there lack of knowledge/experience, its an easy application to work with.

2.) drag racing, people that want to push over 30 PSI with a engine rebuild (aka dragsters), these engines are already putting out huge ammounts of horsepower N/A, and are built to rev quite a bit, when you are running around 35 psi with a supercharger and your engine is built to rev like crazy, boost comes quick thus creating alot power fast.

Do not confuse all dragsters methods with street cars racing methods, drag cars have many thousands of dollars put into the engine, they are not even close to our 3800 v6's so dont even dream of our cars or compare our cars to dragsters or you will find yourself wasting alot of money. your best bet to make this car fast is low compression engine with higher psi turbocharged system. i read in an article somewhere a pontiac grand prix GTP ran close to flat 12's with 18 psi from a Paxton supercharger and numerous engine mods.

Another man had a turbocharged pontiac grand prix GT running very low 11's at 18 psi boost using a TE64 turbo and numerous engine mods.

I dont know if anyone of us will run 11's since it seems most of us are on a budget, but with a turbo and a simple engine rebuild, im guessing high 12's very low 13's would be easily made.


Conclusion...

A supercharger is a good application to use but be sure you know what your getting yourself into, you dont make full boost at low rpm with a supercharger. You will make full boost at high rpms with a supercharger

A turbocharger will give you full boost at lower rpms. The turbo lag is way exaggerated, my friend has a WRX, turbo lag is not a problem, he blows away my v6 camaro everytime, even if it wasn't AWD he would still waste me.

Selecting the right turbo is all you have to do. Just call companies and ask them questions.

[ June 15, 2003: Message edited by: Swift_3800_F-Body ]<hr></blockquote>

Awh shucks!...you just ruined this thread by making the best opinion I have seen
I totally agree... :D

[Tiago]

someone mentioned somewhere in this thread that turbo intake temps were way up high like 200+ degrees :rolleyes:

I knew mine didn't go that high but I Wanted to get some data on it so I could be sure. WITHOUT using hte CO2 cooler at about 10 lbs of boost and moving at about 45 mph, I scanned the pcm. I saw my intake temps in an average of 5 runs were about 120 deg, mind you the ambient temp here in Houston at about 1pm was damn close to 100 deg. Can't wait to see how those IATs drop with a littel CO2 ;)


:D

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

tiago what rpm does your turbo make boost at?

[mattsv6]

inlet air temperature has to do with the efficiency of the turbo compared too engine volume and boost. this is why i ompared a t100 to a t3. if you ran a t3 at 20 psi on a big block 454, your temps would be rediculous. but if you ran a properly sized turbo in its efficiency island, the air temps would be moderate. if your turbo isnt properly matched t your application, you are gonna surge, or jsut superheat the air and have no good power gain. this is the same method of choosing an intercooler. if you run a tiny 12x8x3.5 intercooler in a car that is making 600hp, you are no going to have a high temp drop and you are gonna have a huge pressure drop across the core. but if you properly size one for your application, it will almost bring your temps back to ambeint with a minimal pressure drop. these are the things that we are arguing about that make the intercooled turbo setup better. you can design a turbo setup for any car that is going to be efficient. race car or street car, you will see a hair dryer in my engine bay and a big azz intercooler in my front bumper! [img]graemlins/fluffy.gif[/img]

[Tiago]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Swift_3800_F-Body:
tiago what rpm does your turbo make boost at?<hr></blockquote>

mine starts spooling at about 2500, full boost by 3500 rpms.

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

Ok, i have made up my mind, as far as street fun, i was driving my friends 93 supercharged 5.0 lx mustang, seriously, having boost that quick is nice for dipping on people in traffic, it pays off, since im going to rebuild my engine i will have to go with a supercharger running around 16-18 psi. id recommend going with a turbo if you are planning to run boost around 7-10, that way you dont need to modify much. but if you plan on going with higher boost than 10 id prefer a supercharger simply because you can get a high stall converter with 3.73 or 4.10 gears and blast past cars without having to worry about when your boost will kick. with this blown mustang we were tearin up, other mustangs, camaros, a supra, wrx's, talons, the only car that got us was a suped up trans am ws6 that pulled hard passed us sickly

[foshizl]

just wondering people are saying that with a super you have boost right away but with a turbo you dont, my question is but when you step on the gas with either you wont have boost right away because before it can make boost it has to overcome vaccuum. so neither would create power "right away" just one sooner than the other right? plus im curious at what RPM the supercharger starts putting out boost, and what RPM it hits Full Boost, to better compare to that of the Turbo. Thanks

Tiago's Turbo starts spooling at about 2500, full boost by 3500 rpms.

Supercharger : ?

[ June 25, 2003: Message edited by: foshizl ]</p>

[mattsv6]

i drove my buddies 11second mustang the other day and that has a blower on it. full boost of 10psi @ 4000? we built this car and it put down 598rwhp and 580ft pounds. then look at tiago's car that makes full boost of 10psi @ 3k-3500. which boost comes on faster? look in car craft about the fastest. it went int hte low 6's with the aid of a turbo. who said blowers are better? i think this proves it is all "tuners preference"!

[nocutt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by foshizl:
just wondering people are saying that with a super you have boost right away but with a turbo you dont, my question is but when you step on the gas with either you wont have boost right away because before it can make boost it has to overcome vaccuum. so neither would create power "right away" just one sooner than the other right? plus im curious at what RPM the supercharger starts putting out boost, and what RPM it hits Full Boost, to better compare to that of the Turbo. Thanks

Tiago's Turbo starts spooling at about 2500, full boost by 3500 rpms.

Supercharger : ?

[ June 25, 2003: Message edited by: foshizl ]<hr></blockquote>

Really subjective?!?! You can have a turbo starting making usable boost by 1200,1600,1900 RPMs...the point is that it will choked at the top end due to several issues by design and character...having said that a supercharger will make boost "like a blink of an eye"...yes that is how quick!...overcoming vacuumn with an SC is not like overcoming vacuumn in a TC, the SC is directly connected to the crank so in reality it is making boost all the time and by design it can dump pressure via a gate...unfortunately I don't think this works with a Centrifugal (belt driven) meaning this form of SC will put out boost (pressure) all day all the time...now when you get on the gas, by design it will make x amount of boost @ x amount in the powerband...till red line were it will/should see max boost...NB only at redline will an SC get to its full capability...a turbo on the other hand (owner's choice) can see full boost at a third of the engines powerband or at the end of the engines powerband...

[V6Bob]

"so neither would create power "right away" just one sooner than the other right?"

The supercharger has a bit of an edge because it is rigidly connected to the engine and speeds up just as fast as the engine. The turbo is not solidly connected and requires a bit of time to "spool up", like a jet engine. In a well designed system current turbo design has reduced this lag time, but it's still there.

Turbo lag used to be bad, and can still be bad in a poorly designed system. It must have been a real thrill to roadrace a Porsche turbo in the early days. Going fast in a corner you needed to put your foot down about one second before you actually wanted the power. Like sending orders down to the engine room on a ship. :D

[Tiago]

a turbo boost curve is exponential


a SC boost curve is linear.


thats as best as I can describe it....


I would much rather have exponential.

[hou-tex-six]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Swift_3800_F-Body:
Ok, i have made up my mind, as far as street fun, i was driving my friends 93 supercharged 5.0 lx mustang, seriously, having boost that quick is nice for dipping on people in traffic, it pays off, since im going to rebuild my engine i will have to go with a supercharger running around 16-18 psi. id recommend going with a turbo if you are planning to run boost around 7-10, that way you dont need to modify much. but if you plan on going with higher boost than 10 id prefer a supercharger simply because you can get a high stall converter with 3.73 or 4.10 gears and blast past cars without having to worry about when your boost will kick. with this blown mustang we were tearin up, other mustangs, camaros, a supra, wrx's, talons, the only car that got us was a suped up trans am ws6 that pulled hard passed us sickly<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the recommendation...hahaha. Apples to oranges comparisons yet again.

Cp

[Arctc Wolf]

wrong, a centrifugal compressor produces boost exponentially, this mean centrifugal sc's and turbo's. roots blowers make power linearly.

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

ok, look at it like this, turbo is not very fun on the road, atleast i dont think so, on the road with a supercharger its fun because you can hit the gas and fly at anytime you please. if i bought a LS1 f-body or 5.0 stang id have to go with a Supercharger.

it is true though, that a crappy turbo setup will be a nightmare, a good path to go would to rebuild your 3800 and run high boost of around 16 to 18 psi, our cars would hit 12's no doubt

[hou-tex-six]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Swift_3800_F-Body:
ok, look at it like this, turbo is not very fun on the road, atleast i dont think so, on the road with a supercharger its fun because you can hit the gas and fly at anytime you please. if i bought a LS1 f-body or 5.0 stang id have to go with a Supercharger.

it is true though, that a crappy turbo setup will be a nightmare, a good path to go would to rebuild your 3800 and run high boost of around 16 to 18 psi, our cars would hit 12's no doubt<hr></blockquote>

Have you driven a turbo on the road? Maybe you havent driven the right one, because i can tell you it is amazing to get that turbo spooling and throwing you back in the seat harder and harder. If you take off the line you wait for the turbo, if your already in the rpms and have it spooled up and cruising (3000 RPM) there will be virtually no lag.

Additionally if you had an LS1 the abundance of TQ of the LS1 would negate the turbo lag and therefore you would probably have a more balanced set up with a Turbo. But thats besides the point.

If your basing your selection of supercharged over turbo by one car you drove which is completely different in the power delivery from the car you are looking to put the forced induction on, then you are not comparing apples to apples. Either way, seems like youd fit better with a more conservative supercharger.

Cp