Turbo vs. blower debate w/in

[nocutt]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Swift_3800_F-Body:
ok, look at it like this, turbo is not very fun on the road, atleast i dont think so, on the road with a supercharger its fun because you can hit the gas and fly at anytime you please. if i bought a LS1 f-body or 5.0 stang id have to go with a Supercharger.

it is true though, that a crappy turbo setup will be a nightmare, a good path to go would to rebuild your 3800 and run high boost of around 16 to 18 psi, our cars would hit 12's no doubt<hr></blockquote>

I think you are either underestimating what LAG really is or you are overestimating what it can potentially mean!?!?

Come to Cali pls, in this car...when you hit the gas...you better hold on for dear life... ;) IMO lag has been and will always be one of those things ppl will continue to pass as a inherent problem for a turbo...it is an over-exaggerated issue at best...if there is such a word!!
The L36 is cursed with a relatively high CR...believe me you wouldn't notice lag.
You do not need a rebuild to run 12's consecutively or reliabily...just avoid detonation (KR)...

[12secondv6]

Silly boosted people......

Nitrous OWNS all of you.

315 rwhp
380 rwtq
Those are old dyno numbers

Times.... in the sig :D

32-33 mpg [img]smile.gif[/img]

87,000 miles on a junkyard engine
Stock cam
Stock throttle body
Stck injectors
Stock valvetrain
Ported heads
Ported upper and lower intake

&lt;---- stll waiting for one of you boosted people to beat me :D

DISCLAIMER: the above is meant as a joke because some people get carried away and get bent out of shape with this topic.

[Arctc Wolf]

silly bottle feeder! forced induction ownz u! we got the power all the time, w/o having to refill. we could still get high gas mileage when we drive on highway, since there wouldn't be much load on the engine w/ a turbo at lower rpms.

[Neil350]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 12secondv6:
Silly boosted people......

Nitrous OWNS all of you.

315 rwhp
380 rwtq
Those are old dyno numbers

Times.... in the sig :D

32-33 mpg [img]smile.gif[/img]

87,000 miles on a junkyard engine
Stock cam
Stock throttle body
Stck injectors
Stock valvetrain
Ported heads
Ported upper and lower intake

&lt;---- stll waiting for one of you boosted people to beat me :D

DISCLAIMER: the above is meant as a joke because some people get carried away and get bent out of shape with this topic.<hr></blockquote>


you just got OWNED by tiago

92k miles on junkyard motor
336 rwhp amd 397 rwtq
30+ mpg if he ever stays off the redline


[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Neil350 ]

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Neil350 ]</p>

[1998silverbird]

252rwhp 292rwft on a 50 shot with stock heads, stock cam, stock intake.. spraying a 75 shot , fill up if I get a good race 1 a nite through 3 gears, every 10 days or so.. I had one guy this weekend tell me that nitrous is for pussies.. If you wanted to hit 12's you houldnt have to hook up a bottle to your motor.. But its cool to hit 12's with a blower or turbo!! i dont get that.. a power adder is a power adder.. The reason I choose N20 is that the kit was 300.00 plus 150 to have installed, bootle fill is 30.00 and The fact that I gained 72hp and 70 ftlbs on a 50 shot!!

This whole turbo vrs supercharger debate is very interesting.. I love superchargers and turbos but I would say right now I would have to side with the turbos.. I havent seen a 3800 hit 9's with a supercharger but every grand national video I see there either runnin mid 10's or 9's with bolt ons and a boost controler.. once I see a 3800 hit 9's with a blower I would say the most effective way to get power, besides N20, is with a turbo.. The only thing I hate about turbo's is the lag..

[12secondv6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Neil350:



you just got OWNED by tiago

92k miles on junkyard motor
336 rwhp amd 397 rwtq
30+ mpg if he ever stays off the redline


[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Neil350 ]

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Neil350 ]<hr></blockquote>

I am one second quicker.....I'm not OWNED [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Tiago]

lmao, once I join the stalled auto group I might give you some trouble in the ET category ;)

[V6Bob]

There's an interesting article about putting three different chargers (Roots, centrifugal, turbo) on a Mustang V8 in this months Hot Rod.

It explains why Roots rules Top Fuel.

Turbos are illegal.

[Bliggida]

That was a good article. The thing I didn't like was that they used good sized turbocharger, and centrifugal supercharger, and when it came to the roots blower they use one of the smallest on the market, instead of a more evenly matched 6-71, (as admitted by Hot Rod) and then the power numbers are off a bit.

Being illegal in a specific class of racing has never stopped anyone from building the most power they can, even if only for demonstration purposes. Turbo's may flow better, but a 6,000 HP turby does not yet exist.

Where as most people may say it can't be done, I think it can be accomplished, but no one has done it yet. And that is not to say that it is soley the lack of undertaking why it doesn't exist. It will take much much more than bolting it up and applying the same about of boost as on a top fuel car.

That's why I say blowers will ultimately net you more power (in race conditions). That statement is useless concerning road cars.

[mattsv6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Turbo's may flow better, but a 6,000 HP turby does not yet exist.
<hr></blockquote>

where is this information from?? what about all the large turbo deisel heavy equipment motors? or you can do a staged turbo setup and have a smaller turbo boosting a huge one too make tons of power.this setup easily makes over 200psi intake pressures. if you dont believe me then go watch a tractor pulling contest and see what those motors are like.

[Bliggida]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mattsv6:
where is this information from?? what about all the large turbo deisel heavy equipment motors? or you can do a staged turbo setup and have a smaller turbo boosting a huge one too make tons of power.this setup easily makes over 200psi intake pressures. if you dont believe me then go watch a tractor pulling contest and see what those motors are like.<hr></blockquote>Those motors are impressive, but they aren't making 6,000 horsepower.

In fact, most of them make less than 200 horsepower. But their torque values are much much higher. Even so, they aren't anywhere near the level of performance seen out of a blower in race conditions.

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

Ok, ok, ok, the supercharger is out of my mind, i drove a 95 eclipse GST today and all i can say is WOW! when it hits full boost it really does send you back into your seat, i was completely astonished by this little 4 bangers oooomph! only 1 wheel spins too, but the car is incredible.

Turbo is definately the way im going. Tiago saw over 350 pounds of torque at 14 psi, i want that too for my 3800, im still going to get GTP pistons and better rods, a shift kit i will need most likely with a chip also, if im going to see over 300 pounds of torque i want my tires to roast [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Lord_Verminaard]

LOL some good conversations going on here. I'll toss in my pennies. I'm a newbie on here but I think I have a good deal of knowledge in my noggin. First a little backround: I work at a VW dealership in the parts department, I get to drive around new VW's on occasion. For those that dont know, the VW 1.8T four cylinder turbo engine is becoming the "standard" for most VW vehicles. On the GTI it sees 180 HP and 185 lb/ft torque on a very flat torque curve. I got to drive one on a 80 mile highway trip and decided to experiment. The turbo is almost seemless in operation, with electronic boost control from the ECM. I was cruising at about 45 in fifth gear, around 1.5k rpms, and dipped in the throttle a little without downshifting- swoosh, the turbo kicks in and away you go. Downshift to 4th and you're around 2.6k rpms, holding stady the turbo does not spool, but as soon as you get on it, swoosh, the car squirts along. It's really pretty cool how far along turbo's have come. It really does feel like a nice V6, it has torque down low and good power up high. Sure, it's a small turbo and the car isnt that fast, but it is very easy to drive. Turbo lag is indeed a thing of the past. Another quick example, the comment about the diesel tractor pull engines having 200 horsepower? Not hardly. I've seen 1.9L VW turbo diesels with a chip and injector upgrade hit 200 hp and dangerously close to 300 lb/ft of torque. And the turbos on those cars kick in at 1300 rpm, and is on full bore at 1800 all the way to redline. My point is, turbos are cool. [img]smile.gif[/img] Superchargers are cool too. Chargers work well on larger displacement engines, due to the already high inherent torque in larger engines. Also, to turbo a V8 you need either one really big turbo or two substantially sized turbos, and most vehicles that have V8's already have a cramped engine compartment. In the end, forced induction is forced induction and properly tuned and matched charger or turbo in ANY vehicle will make it perform %100 better.

Ok I'm done. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Brendan
2000 Camaro 5-speed

[Swift_3800_F-Body]

If i had to go with a forced induction id have to go with turbo. because the top end accelleration is ugly for the 3.8's, bottom end looks very decent with posi 3.73 or 4:11 gears, if you want to get serious a high stall torque converter will help you fly out of a stop very hard. supercharging is just not a good idea for our cars, its very expensive to find a good supercharger, and cost more to upgrade your cars engine to handle the boost.
Less people infact have been supercharging there cars simply because its a waste of money if you dont plan to build a full blown drag car. people right now are supercharging thier GTP's with a belt blower because its easy, the GTP engine is already made to handle a good ammount of boost and companies are seeing the oppourtunity to market them. even though a test showed a turbo ran more effiecent and better 1/4 times on the GTP.

[Mike Mayron]

Ha ha ha... this has been one heck of a thread.

I don't really care what anyone thinks of me or my opinions so I'm just going to state a few facts I've personally experienced and then my opinion on when and where I'd use a SC or TC.

Facts personally experienced by me:

1. With an automatic transmission on a turbo charged car you can launch at near full boost by powerbraking (you must put a load on an engine to generate heat; sorry gear shifters, no clutch drops) Also don't loose boost during each shift like on a manual TCed car or any SC.

2. My truck will peg it's 30psi boost gauge @ 2200 rpm @ no more than 75% throttle w/ an empty load. If i put a load on, or had a better clutch (so I could go WOT and not have to ease into it) it'd spool even faster. Over 30 psi @ 2200 rpms @ no more than 1200*F doesn't sound too laggy to me. Imagine on a gasser w/ 1600-1800* exhaust.

3. Turbo boost is dependant on engine load (not rpm) so when you're crusing up hill in a TC car the engine almost responds w/o any right foot input. This kinda make the car feel alive and more fun on the freeway and up those 7 and 8%ers.

4. Turbo charged cars rarly see much if any boost while you're crusing on the freeway. A supercharger is still going to be producing X boost @ your crusing rpm which will just eat more fuel (you are compinsating right?) and add extra stress to the internals.

Facts not experienced by myself personally but never really heard anything different from smart people.(take it or leave it I don't care.):

1. Superchargers are boost predictable @ X rpms which makes it nice w/ a manual trans, especially if you like to auto x or drive mountian roads. (yes a turbo can be too w/ the right boost controller but you can still have spikes and around a corner that ain't good) You know that when you shift your getting or loosing so much boost/power so you can shift earlier or later to compensate.

2. In order to get alot of boost off the line (atleast 80% of full boost) on a SCed (centerfusal that is) car you either have to launch @ an insane rpm or have a huge blower (more engine drag) that vents extra boost @ the top end unless you're built to run crazy boost but then you'd probably go even bigger huh?

OK now for the opinion portion.

First I'll state that I think manuals are more fun but autos dominate in consistancy.

In a purpose built corner carver I'd opt for the manual and supercharger for thier predictable nature and control in and out of corners. Compression braking is nice too.

In an all out speed machine, it's gotta be a turbo and auto. Turbo get spooled up before even launching and the auto will keep you consistant off the line and you can multiply the torque a few times if you've lowered compression for boost.

If I had a weekend toy (hey I do!) it'd be a turbo and a manual (hey it is!). They just feel alive the way you can ease into the boost or just mash it to the floor and hold on.

Daily driver (in LA traffic not idaho) would defenitly be an auto but I could really go either way on the FI. I paid way to much for CIA headers on my firebird (my daily driver) that I justified to myself as something that'd never need to be replaced. Also the pluming is kinda tight for a turbo and I like my a/c and ground clearance (what's that?) I have now. I also like that I could get it back to stock fairly easily for the smog nazi's in SoCal or incase of a SC failure. Sound like the supercharger would fit the bill right? Well not if I have to invest 5,6 or 7 G's into it for a good kit. I don't like those headers that much ;)

Basicaly if price wasn't an issue on the SC i'd throw one on my firebird but if I had the excessive room for it (im talking inline engines here) I go for the turbo every time on a daily driver. It's just soo much fun :D Damn I need to get a supra already.

Remember this is just my opinion either way you go is still better than all motor so don't say how wonderful it is just because it's better than what you're used to.

Just my $.02 based on a little reality not just cause I wanna look smart. Hell im sure I'll add more later but I gotta go now.

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Mike Mayron ]</p>