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i wish i lived down south. **** it snowed 2-4 in last weekednd :rant: i hate the stuff. so is it like a v6 nationals or something? i know we have the s10nats witch is a realy good time. is your car going to be ready to kick some a$$ or what ?
Im not here to continue the pissing match between a turbo and SC, but from what I have observed over the last two years, the FFF kits are unreliable, expensive, built like crap, and resell for less than HALF of what someone would buy one new for. The kit is a POS, and the company making them is about a reliable as the weather. Missed deadlines, surreal and hilarious excuses. I wouldn't have them make me a cup of coffee, it would take 2 weeks to do. And I will also let you all in on a big secret, NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE here has expressed the knowledge to put a RWD 3.8l into the 9's, simply because there is a point in which you have to start that is even far beyond that of simply doing bolt-ons and such. You are going to have to do $3000 of work IN JUST THE BLOCK ITSELF to create the optimum conditions to handle the psi or nitrous needed for a 9 second run. Im talking either hardblok-ing it or sleeving the engine, boring it to its maximum allowable tolerance, and plugging water outlets and holes, and that is JUST the block, just a bare block. And then once the block itself it at optimum conditions, then you need to worry about the rotating assembly, rods, crank, pistons, all of which will have to be almost custom. You MIGHT get away with L32 rods on such a run, but that is almost inevitable that they will break, and I can't even go with the crank, cause as far as I know, there isn't a crank built that will handle REPEATED runs of 9 seconds, not the stock, and not the crank from COME Racing. And then once you get all of that, you have to worry about the top end, which might actually be the only strong point that is availiable in production to the 3800 community. Once you have overcome the mechanical aspect of building this thing up, and you have spent $25k in the engine, then you have to worry about fuel and ignition, which if anyone here were to use the PCM that came with the car and tried using HPTuners or DHP, I should smack the living hell out of you. You will NEVER get an optimum tune from a stock PCM, no matter what you think. You will need a standalone system, and that is going to cost about $3000 right there, because you are going to have to build it from scratch.
And all I have mentioned is the engine and such, im not even getting into what you will have to do as in weight reduction, suspension, and which power adder would be better for which conditions. You all want to have a pissing match about who's got the number one spot, and its not impressive to me, because I KNOW what it takes, I have researched the hell out of it for 6 years, and the only thing stopping me is the funds to make it all happen. So for anyone who really wants a record, and not some decently fast street/strip car, come talk to me. And if you think I am completely wrong, then still, come talk to me, because this is easily one of the worst pissing matches I have ever seen.
The days of the arrogant top runners has ended. Im pushing the bar, maybe not from the track, but from knowledge. You want records, you're going to have to make a race car.
1995 Pontiac Firebird
2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4
Nothing agast you man you do have some wrong info in this post..... i know how to get my car in the 9's, funding it is the problem....
Originally posted by Mogobs30th
Im not here to continue the pissing match between a turbo and SC, but from what I have observed over the last two years, the FFF kits are unreliable, expensive, built like crap, and resell for less than HALF of what someone would buy one new for. The kit is a POS, and the company making them is about a reliable as the weather. Missed deadlines, surreal and hilarious excuses. I wouldn't have them make me a cup of coffee, it would take 2 weeks to do.
every that has installed it, and stuck with it, and got it running loves there kit, i installed my kit in 7hours with the help of a friend.... eveything fit beacuse i had the y-pipe adjust to the pacesetter headers.........
you say company, tiago only make kits buy order now, no out sorcing, he don't make harldy anything for it, they make every set buy HAND at linxs house witch is one hour drive away, not only that he works a **** ton at his job, so the FFH kits take a while to get done..
And I will also let you all in on a big secret, NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE here has expressed the knowledge to put a RWD 3.8l into the 9's, simply because there is a point in which you have to start that is even far beyond that of simply doing bolt-ons and such.
please read above
You are going to have to do $3000 of work IN JUST THE BLOCK ITSELF to create the optimum conditions to handle the psi or nitrous needed for a 9 second run. Im talking either hardblok-ing it or sleeving the engine, boring it to its maximum allowable tolerance, and plugging water outlets and holes, and that is JUST the block, just a bare block.
sorry thats total BS, all 9 second 3800's are on a stock, .01 or .02 bore thats it, in fact they only say to go .01 over your first time incase you ever need to take the motor down again
And then once the block itself it at optimum conditions, then you need to worry about the rotating assembly, rods, crank, pistons, all of which will have to be almost custom. You MIGHT get away with L32 rods on such a run, but that is almost inevitable that they will break, and I can't even go with the crank, cause as far as I know, there isn't a crank built that will handle REPEATED runs of 9 seconds, not the stock, and not the crank from COME Racing.
again there has been no report of a broke L32 ROD or stock crank from raw power. in fact the one ZZP 9 second runs a STOCK L67 bottom end, no ARP no nothing. the slap in the cam, slap on the heads throw it in and go. and before you ask they have been running these motor for years without breaking them, the most comman problem is lifing the heads. ever notice ZZP does not sell rods or pistons? that because they use the stock L67 or L32 one's.
And then once you get all of that, you have to worry about the top end, which might actually be the only strong point that is availiable in production to the 3800 community. Once you have overcome the mechanical aspect of building this thing up, and you have spent $25k in the engine, then you have to worry about fuel and ignition, which if anyone here were to use the PCM that came with the car and tried using HPTuners or DHP, I should smack the living hell out of you. You will NEVER get an optimum tune from a stock PCM, no matter what you think. You will need a standalone system, and that is going to cost about $3000 right there, because you are going to have to build it from scratch.
while true for the f-body crowd to point the GTP PCM's where boost programmed for the factory so they have alot more room to work with, every one of the 9 second cars runs a tuned stock pcm...... they do dial the maf down and trick the PCM with the injecotr size but it works
And all I have mentioned is the engine and such, im not even getting into what you will have to do as in weight reduction, suspension, and which power adder would be better for which conditions. You all want to have a pissing match about who's got the number one spot, and its not impressive to me, because I KNOW what it takes, I have researched the hell out of for 6 years, and the only thing stopping me is the funds to make it all happen. So for anyone who really wants a record, and not some decently fast street/strip car, come talk to me. And if you think I am completely wrong, then still, come talk to me, because this is easily one of the worst pissing matches I have ever seen.
i'm not saying your wrong but your info is outdated or the place you found it is wrong
The days of the arrogant top runners has ended. Im pushing the bar, maybe not from the track, but from knowledge. You want records, you're going to have to make a race car.
no you dont one of the 9 second car take 1 hour to put back into "street trim"
infact one owner drive his most of the time, yes granted with out hte slicks and thing is not a 9 second car on the street, however it will still lay a smack down on about anything on the road lol
www.turbov6camaro.com 1997 3800 Series II Camaro 4600 Stall for my ride to the mall :chug: 7.18 @ 99.77 1/8 -1.8x sixty (current quickest v6 fbod) 11.23 @ unk 5 1/4 - 7.19 1/8 - 1.83 sixty
sorry thats total BS, all 9 second 3800's are on a stock, .01 or .02 bore thats it, in fact they only say to go .01 over your first time incase you ever need to take the motor down again
again there has been no report of a broke L32 ROD or stock crank from raw power. in fact the one ZZP 9 second runs a STOCK L67 bottom end, no ARP no nothing. the slap in the cam, slap on the heads throw it in and go. and before you ask they have been running these motor for years without breaking them, the most comman problem is lifing the heads. ever notice ZZP does not sell rods or pistons? that because they use the stock L67 or L32 one's.
While what you said about the ZZP car is true, the bottom end being stock, its a matter of time before it goes. And if I am wrong, then why would Scott Cook and Intense BUILD the race engine they use? And I assure you now, you and everyone on this board KNOWS that Scott's engine is FAR from stock. And when you look at the car that Stattama and ZZP built, 80% of it is tubeframed, not to mention they have about $23,000 invested into it, not including the car itself. Might be a stock bottom end, but these engines and other components are FAR from stock. Yes, you can get away with certain things, like the bottom end, but how long will it last? Pushing that much power out of it will exponentially kill that rotating assembly much faster, leading to more money being spent and more time down, kinda like the situation you yourself is in now. And all of these things these guys have done was with a GTP, GT, or other FWD car. What you also fail to understand is that Zooomer has always wanted to get a fast car without spending at boatload of money. He has done that, but the price of reliability is gone. But he can do that, he has the resources and money.
Would anyone here in their right mind do the same thing that these guys are doing? The answer is no, because we don't have the resources or funds to do so. The tuning required on those PCM's they are using would almost require the car to be there with them, on the dyno, to get a precise tune. And as for running 9's, theyve only been doing it since this year. Parts are becoming easier to make and are made stronger, but these guys you mention are guinea pigs, because they can run the car till it breaks. None of us here can do that, and because of that, some of the parts that they run can't really be practically used over and over and over again. If you want something competitive for years, you cant do what these guys have done, because in competition you have to worry about reliability, where these guys are just now pushing the envelope.
I have never had ANY intentions of driving my Firebird on the street once it is where I want it, and for all I know, I could spend that much money, plan that much into it, and even break the 9 second barrier, but I can also only get 10's. Simply put, if you want some kind of reliability, you can't go the route that ZZP, Intense, and Stattama have gone, and it has to be planned well to have a reliable car, RELIABLE, to make those numbers that they are producing.
1995 Pontiac Firebird
2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4
While what you said about the ZZP car is true, the bottom end being stock, its a matter of time before it goes. And if I am wrong, then why would Scott Cook and Intense BUILD the race engine they use? And I assure you now, you and everyone on this board KNOWS that Scott's engine is FAR from stock. And when you look at the car that Stattama and ZZP built, 80% of it is tubeframed, not to mention they have about $23,000 invested into it, not including the car itself. Might be a stock bottom end, but these engines and other components are FAR from stock. Yes, you can get away with certain things, like the bottom end, but how long will it last? Pushing that much power out of it will exponentially kill that rotating assembly much faster, leading to more money being spent and more time down, kinda like the situation you yourself is in now. And all of these things these guys have done was with a GTP, GT, or other FWD car. What you also fail to understand is that Zooomer has always wanted to get a fast car without spending at boatload of money. He has done that, but the price of reliability is gone. But he can do that, he has the resources and money.
Would anyone here in their right mind do the same thing that these guys are doing? The answer is no, because we don't have the resources or funds to do so. The tuning required on those PCM's they are using would almost require the car to be there with them, on the dyno, to get a precise tune. And as for running 9's, theyve only been doing it since this year. Parts are becoming easier to make and are made stronger, but these guys you mention are guinea pigs, because they can run the car till it breaks. None of us here can do that, and because of that, some of the parts that they run can't really be practically used over and over and over again. If you want something competitive for years, you cant do what these guys have done, because in competition you have to worry about reliability, where these guys are just now pushing the envelope.
I have never had ANY intentions of driving my Firebird on the street once it is where I want it, and for all I know, I could spend that much money, plan that much into it, and even break the 9 second barrier, but I can also only get 10's. Simply put, if you want some kind of reliability, you can't go the route that ZZP, Intense, and Stattama have gone, and it has to be planned well to have a reliable car, RELIABLE, to make those numbers that they are producing.
have you enve talked to them? i dont think they would run the L32 rods if it wasn't the best. Ross already make rods for our cars.
how do you have any idea about reliablity? i have talked to both stores and on my points they argee on stuff.
so far i i know these cars are only on there first set of L32 rods and all still on the stock crank....
i don't see your argument here. they are nearly in the 8's I think if stuff was going to start breaking it would have already.......
one car is also turning 8000 RPM on the L32 rods......... they are just fine. like i said i know at least on of the car is driven a lot and alot of the non shop car s are peoples DD's or very near that......
i asked instense the race wight of there car they told me it was ~3100 (at that time) with is only #300 less then mine with a ton of crap in it.
about hte tuning have you seen it? you talk like you know how it tuned. of course the car would have to be with the to tune and of cousre you have to tune it on a dyno......... whats the big deal about that
your crazy to try and tune a 9 second car on the street :eek:
ZZP even solve 90% of the head gasket issues by adding extra head studs.... and they have AL heads coming out in Feb that flow 300CFM :naughty:
These already know what the limit is of every part of the motor........ any motor in the 9 is not that reliable in the first place and any compition motor (not sure why you so concerd with that) gets re done every season if not more
www.turbov6camaro.com 1997 3800 Series II Camaro 4600 Stall for my ride to the mall :chug: 7.18 @ 99.77 1/8 -1.8x sixty (current quickest v6 fbod) 11.23 @ unk 5 1/4 - 7.19 1/8 - 1.83 sixty
I ran down to zzp on friday to pick up some things and talked to them since I live 10 minutes away. They are tearing down their car with the stock bottom end due to a noise it was starting to make. Their stock bottom end is finally tired out after the 30+ passes of which most were 9sec runs they have made. They believe it was a rod bearing
I ran down to zzp on friday to pick up some things and talked to them since I live 10 minutes away. They are tearing down their car with the stock bottom end due to a noise it was starting to make. Their stock bottom end is finally tired out after the 30+ passes of which most were 9sec runs they have made. They believe it was a rod bearing
30+ 9 sec passes is pretty damn impressive for a stock bottom end :eek: :rock:
Andrew, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. So I thought of a way to figure this all out. Im going to ask some questions, and you answer. I belive you will answer the way I think you will, I can explain my point better. Here we go....
Would you rather have L32 rods, or lightweight billet aluminum, able to KNOWINGLY withstand over 1200+ hp?
Can you tune better with a standalone system, similar to FAST's XFI, or HP tuners?
Would you rather build your engine with ARP studs and bolts, or use stock nuts and bolts?
Do you think stock pistons are better for the application than diamond coated?
Would you use a 1 pc steel driveshaft, or a carbon fiber, for both hp and safety concerns?
Would you rather have the stock crank, or a billet?
Iron heads or Aluminum?
Which block will last longer, one that has only been bored .01 over, or one that has been bored .025 over, with hardblok added to the water jacket?
This isn't a matter of simply getting into the 9's. Hell, I can throw a 400hp shot of nitrous on my stock engine, and I might actually get into the 9's, might only be one time, but it might work. But we all know about the risks to doing stuff like that. Thats why their are supported mods to compliment the power adders we use. Because it isn't about just doing it and getting there for me or anyone else on this board, its about getting the numbers we see, and being able to take it to the track more than one or two times before we have to strip the motor down. Take for example tuning, I mean simply put, I will be able to tune with my standalone better than you will with your HP Tuners. My hardblok'd engine will outlast anything out there if I were to add what everyone else has. Only when I try to push more than anyone has, or if there was an unseen flaw, will that block fail me, and crack down the middle, or whatever. I want an engine that will repeatedly endure 9 second passes without failure. You still have to remember to that only 2 RWD cars have broken 9's, and none of them are Fbodies. Hell, ones a damn Commodore.
All I am trying to say is that I, as well as anyone else with some sense on this board, is going to spend a little extra money on the better rods, pistons, PCM system, so they aren't replacing parts in a month. If you can get that car into the 9's, keep it on the street, and do nothing but regular maintenence, including your annual or bi-annual teardown and rebuild, then I am wrong, and I need not say anything. But the very first part on that engine that breaks, I will be here waiting.
On a side note, I really wish I had the money to get just the engine done. I think I have a really sick setup planned, just need the f***ing money.:(
1995 Pontiac Firebird
2008 Chevrolet Silverado LT Crew Cab 4x4
Andrew, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. So I thought of a way to figure this all out. Im going to ask some questions, and you answer. I belive you will answer the way I think you will, I can explain my point better. Here we go....
k
Would you rather have L32 rods, or lightweight billet aluminum, able to KNOWINGLY withstand over 1200+ hp?
L32 becuase AL rods are know to strech over time, plus they cost $600 less
Can you tune better with a standalone system, similar to FAST's XFI, or HP tuners?
i ansrew none..... beacuse Mega squrit can do evrything soon for less then $1000, installing yourself (they are adding tranny control soon)
Would you rather build your engine with ARP studs and bolts, or use stock nuts and bolts?
the dpens, if you want a motor with low CR on the buget L32 or L67 bottom end for the win, however if you have the motor apart the ARP is not that expensive
Do you think stock pistons are better for the application than diamond coated?
yes becuease they give you tune **** up room tho i think the coated pistons are a waste of money
Would you use a 1 pc steel driveshaft, or a carbon fiber, for both hp and safety concerns?
1 pc steal cause i'm not paying $800 for a DS, they day i run 8's i'll think about it or the NHRA will make me.
Would you rather have the stock crank, or a billet?
stock why waste money on it IF NOT ONE CAR HAS BROKEN IT...... the bullet one could lighter or stroked i guess but then its a not 3.8 anymore.
Iron heads or Aluminum?
umm AL duhhhhhhhhhh :P but i dont see me paying for AL heads untill they have been out and tested for while and the price comes down
Which block will last longer, one that has only been bored .01 over, or one that has been bored .025 over, with hardblok added to the water jacket?
i dont know WTF that is....... bore it .01 or .02 and have fune since this has never been a problem for ANY CAR
This isn't a matter of simply getting into the 9's. Hell, I can throw a 400hp shot of nitrous on my stock engine, and I might actually get into the 9's, might only be one time, but it might work. But we all know about the risks to doing stuff like that. Thats why their are supported mods to compliment the power adders we use. Because it isn't about just doing it and getting there for me or anyone else on this board, its about getting the numbers we see, and being able to take it to the track more than one or two times before we have to strip the motor down. Take for example tuning, I mean simply put, I will be able to tune with my standalone better than you will with your HP Tuners. My hardblok'd engine will outlast anything out there if I were to add what everyone else has. Only when I try to push more than anyone has, or if there was an unseen flaw, will that block fail me, and crack down the middle, or whatever. I want an engine that will repeatedly endure 9 second passes without failure. You still have to remember to that only 2 RWD cars have broken 9's, and none of them are Fbodies. Hell, ones a damn Commodore.
i think your thinking into it to much why spend money that proven you dont have to
All I am trying to say is that I, as well as anyone else with some sense on this board, is going to spend a little extra money on the better rods, pistons, PCM system, so they aren't replacing parts in a month. If you can get that car into the 9's, keep it on the street, and do nothing but regular maintenence, including your annual or bi-annual teardown and rebuild, then I am wrong, and I need not say anything. But the very first part on that engine that breaks, I will be here waiting.
again i think your thinking to hard
On a side note, I really wish I had the money to get just the engine done. I think I have a really sick setup planned, just need the f***ing money.:(
me to if i hit the lotto i'll send some your way
www.turbov6camaro.com 1997 3800 Series II Camaro 4600 Stall for my ride to the mall :chug: 7.18 @ 99.77 1/8 -1.8x sixty (current quickest v6 fbod) 11.23 @ unk 5 1/4 - 7.19 1/8 - 1.83 sixty
^ i think that was the best typed post ive ever seen you make, im not trying to be a smart a$$ im just saying.
about the event in texas..you will be video taping most if not ALL of your runs right?
1998 bright red camaro ,M5 ,Y87 ,stock<br /><br />Originally posted by Rune:<br />If it smells like a turd and looks like a turd, chances are its probably not a candy bar.
First time i've logged onto this board since the formation of FTV6, and i find this somewhat entertaining thread.
Alot of crazy things being thrown around in here, and really the only thing i want to comment on is this:
Originally posted by Mogobs30th
Once you have overcome the mechanical aspect of building this thing up, and you have spent $25k in the engine, then you have to worry about fuel and ignition, which if anyone here were to use the PCM that came with the car and tried using HPTuners or DHP, I should smack the living hell out of you. You will NEVER get an optimum tune from a stock PCM, no matter what you think. You will need a standalone system, and that is going to cost about $3000 right there, because you are going to have to build it from scratch.
Mogo, you're not terribly far off from the right track until you got to what i quoted right here. There's only one parameter in the stock computers that prevents us from having a 9-second capable car (using HP Tuners alone) with the stock computer. You've been researching this stuff for 6 years, so i'm sure you know what it is, and the only reason that it's an issue is because HP tuners doesn't listen to their customers and deliver what knowledgeable tuners are asking for. I'll tell you right now, you can get a pretty damn good tune from a stock computer, and you can run pretty damn reliably with it too. There's nothing wrong with the stocker in the hands of a good tuner.
So my truck is finally getting some work done, after 17 years, Oil pressure sensor went out and it’s located under the lower intake manifold. Have to...
2 weeks ago
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