Compaire Buick GN with ower 3.8....

[Wheeler]

I rember back in 1988 when my buddy's father bought a new 1987 Buick GN 3.8 Turbo.Man that thing can go.Now i find out that that motor has 245Hp and 360fpt!!
I have a 1997 firebird 3.8 .What makes the GN such a great and fast car?
I know if i put a turbo on my v6 that i could get about 245hp,but will it give me an extra 135fpt?
If you strip the turo off a GN will you have the same 3.8 as we do?
So why is the GN so dame fast?
My buddy still has his GN with over 150,000Km's on it all stock and he still run's 13's in the 1/4.

[Akuma]

Are you sure its stock? GNs should run low-mid 14s.

[Dominic]

Checkout our 3800 Engine history, it has some extra information.

Our 3800-II is actually a stronger/better overall engine than the 3.8GN, but with no turbo. It does need forged pistons/rods to compete with a GN though, so don't forget about that. However, our engines are better designed volumetrically and have the same amout of potential if not more than a GN.

[Wheeler]

Akuma.
I'm 99.9% sure it's all stock.No mods at all.He likes to tell every one he has a stock GN.The only thing that was done was the oils seals somewhere in the motor that was fixed under warrenty back in 91.He even still has the same size tires(215/65/15's) on and will not go wider.
I'll see if he has any time slips to show.Now it may be high 13's but its still 13's!!
I drove the car many many times and i love to my car up to the power of the GN.
I dont know how many times , after i raced a 5.0 stang in it.And than after we stoped he came over wondering what was done to the v8.When i tole him it's only a 3.8 V6 the look on their face is priceless!!

[Dominic]

Man, thats the one thing I never do on any car is keep the stock narrow tires.

Well, on vettes its an exception, but on 95% of cars out there I would always run a wider tire. That GN would look nice in P255s. :D

[ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: Dominic ]</p>

[pigglyroot]

my buddy lane has a mild t-type (high 12 seconds) with 275s out back and 185s in the front...i looove it

[dashiftyfella]

I dunno much about the camaro 3.8l but i have done quite abit of reasearch on the gn motors. one question i have is how is it that the camaro 3.8 is stronger when basic boltons will take the gn into the 10 sec range. the maro 3.8s are holdin 8 and 9 psi while ive seen stage motors handleing 40 psi with alcohal injection. an 87 cool air motor(intercooled) will easily take you into the 13 sec range stock. mostly has to do with its ungoldy torque. also remember that fastest fbody ever was the 1989 turbo trans am with the grand national motor that was estimated to run 12.9 at best.
i think the main differences are in the way its cast. if you look at the metalurgical charts( i think that how you spell it) its composition is different than the other v6's there is a chart on metallurgy on gnttype.org that talks about the difference. what else is different. the gn have a 62mm throttle body and high flow intake. i beleive its fitted with a t66 turbo i know the turbo is made by garrett.

to sum it all up even if it isnt a stage motor the grand national can take one hell of a beating up to 440 psi worth and ive seen 7 second runs out of it. 10s are easy soo there has to bea huge difference betweent the 2 dont let the fact that they both say 3800 fool you.

btw the stock gn's are close to 5000lbs imaging that trans am with that motor in it. wow

[Mighty Thor]

In the GM world there is an unwritten document that no production car shall be faster or better performing than the Corvette.

A stock GN doesn't make 245hp it is actually 301-310hp. The GNX is even more. That is why it is so fast,fastest car to ever came out of production. The 245hp is false document because back then the Corvette was 260hp. The GN always beat the Corvette. For a while there was an interdivision rivalry going on and GM didn't like it. I can't say that is probably why they stopped GN production. I don't have any sources to go by, but I'm speculating that it is.

I agree with Dominic. Our is indeed better in design and more efficient. Cast iron block that is strong and can withstand alot of punishment. But the main difference is that the GN has 4 main bolt with pretty much forged everything with a slithtly larger TB. We could forged everything with port polish heads and better intake plenum on our cars and maybe even modify it to a 4 bolt then put a SC to do 15psi of boost, you have a low 11 sec. V6 f-body car.

Ofcourse we have so many issues, like computer and such, that hopefully in the near future to be solved.

Check out Jan. issue of Hemming's Rods and Performance. Front page cover on buick's 3.8. 5pgs of article on its history, performance and background. Next to it is another 6 pg. of it being installed on a Model T. Great issue with a tons of information.

[ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: Mighty Thor ]</p>

[BATMAN]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mighty Thor:
In the GM world there is an unwritten document that no production car shall be faster or better performing than the Corvette.

A stock GN doesn't make 245hp it is actually 301-310hp. The GNX is even more. That is why it is so fast,fastest car to ever came out of production. The 245hp is false document because back then the Corvette was 260hp. The GN always beat the Corvette. For a while there was an interdivision rivalry going on and GM didn't like it. I can't say that is probably why they stopped GN production. I don't have any sources to go by, but I'm speculating that it is.

I agree with Dominic. Our is indeed better in design and more efficient. Cast iron block that is strong and can withstand alot of punishment. But the main difference is that the GN has 4 main bolt with pretty much forged everything with a slithtly larger TB. We could forged everything with port polish heads and better intake plenum on our cars and maybe even modify it to a 4 bolt then put a SC to do 15psi of boost, you have a low 11 sec. V6 f-body car.

Ofcourse we have so many issues, like computer and such, that hopefully in the near future to be solved.

Check out Jan. issue of Hemming's Rods and Performance. Front page cover on buick's 3.8. 5pgs of article on its history, performance and background. Next to it is another 6 pg. of it being installed on a Model T. Great issue with a tons of information.

[ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: Mighty Thor ]<hr></blockquote>

Wow... i didn't know that about GM's policy. Good info there.

[toast]

Acually the GN was killed when GM decided to ax the G-body. I am sure the compation between the GN and vette did not help matters, but it was not the main cause for the GN demise.

[FlybyChevy]

As far as I can tell the modern 3800II is a stronger engine in design(block) than the old 3.8 GN motor. The "stage" motors are different racing versions of the 3.8GN motor and are much stronger than the stock engine.

An unknown between the two is the fact that the 3800 engine is even-fire and the 3.8 is odd-fire. What I was told that the 3.8 has a journal for each rod while the 3800 has 2 of the 6 rods on the same journal to make it even-fire and smoother. It may mean the crank in the 3800 motors will break before the 3.8, but nobody has taken the 3800 to those levels yet.

[pigglyroot]

the Sy/Ty line could have been the best-selling performance truck line if they didnt cancel it... 4.6 seconds 0-60 for a pickup was quite intimidating to TPI vettes i guess :D

[dashiftyfella]

there are odd and even fire gn motor. the non intercooled turbo buick motors that were carberated were all odd fire motors back in 1977 but there was no grand national then although they were still 3800 odd fires. with the introduction of fuel injection into the turbo buick relm there was even fire models. the onle model that stayed odd fire was the turbo 4.1 version. the grand national blocks are 2 bolt mains i beleive except for the very very very very rare race verions. i beleive there is a company who may have bought the castings for this block are and making aluminum blocks with iorn sleves.

i beleive its strengh is very very heavily dependant on its meatallurgy

EDX analysis showed a large peak at ~6.4 KeV which is Iron (Fe). A secondary peak occurred at ~7.0 KeV which is also Iron (Fe). No other emission lines that correspond to Iron (Fe). A small peak was present at ~1.7 KeV which is Silicon (Si). There were no emissions in the range of Nickel (Ni) ~7.5 KeV and ~0.8 KeV. No emissions in the range of Manganese (Mn) ~5.9 KeV and ~0.6 KeV.
thats from gnttype.org

[dashiftyfella]

this is all the information anyone needs to know about the 3800 motors leading up to the series 2 the next step is to come up with the contrasting information......

ohh and everyone can thank http://gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html
for this information


1977


Odd fire design in early model year
Even fire design produced late in model year
Cylinder heads revised with new exhaust ports and cast rocker stands
1978


Harmonic balancer bolt changed from 5/8" to 3/4" (both versions were produced this year)
1979


Intake ports revised for better breathing
1980


Oil sump and feed passages enlarged from 0.500" to 0.625"
1981


New connecting rods with heavy section cap (they have 2 dots with #763 on the side of the rod)
New harmonic balancer and flywheel for different balance due to new connecting rods
Block revised for rod cap clearance
1982


M10x1.5 metric for accessory mounting holes on heads
Boss on the rear of block for Knock Sensor
Transverse FWD 3.0 V6 introduced in the Skylarkk (X body) with the FWD bolt pattern
1983


Head revised to remove iron at outside edge for valve cover baffle clearance
New intake valve guide seals to fit 0.546" instead of 0.600" guides.
Revised oil pan and valve covers with baffles
1984


New camshaft design with 0.030" larger base circle diameter
0.015" shorter push rods and 0.015" shorter lifters to accommodate base circle (8.703" vs. 8.718")
Oil groove added to the block behind cam bearing #1 and oil groove removed from cam shaft from the cam shaft
In mid-year, the 3.8 FWD V6 was added for the MFI Century T-Type
1985


Oil pan went 20 bolts from 14 bolts
New block, front cover and oil pan
Torque-to-yield non reusable head bolts
1986


Deck height reduced by 0.035" to accommodate 0.058" thick composition head gaskets
Torque-to-yield reusable head bolts
Water drain plugs added to block on both sides between freeze plugs
3.8 liter transverse FWD available
VIN B with flat lifters
VIN 3 with roller lifters
New heads/valve train with pedestal style rockers
Gerotor oil pump
Needle bearing camshaft thrust bearing (P/N 25532588) *which works great with the turbo 3.8s!
3/8" dipstick hole with O-ring seal on tube
1987


3.8 liter transverse FWD changes
Mid-year change to 0.057" longer push rods (7.966") to reduce
cold start noise
New timing chain cover and oil pump pressure regulator
7/16" dipstick tube with O-ring seal
1988


3800 transverse mounted FWD
New on-center block design with balance shaft for improved primary balance
Steel camshaft with improved precision tolerances
Crankshaft balanced with 50% on bob weights
Lighter Slipper skirt pistons with thinner rings for reduced mass
1989


3.8 liter RWD resurrected for special Turbo Trans Am 20th Anniversary edition
3300 (3.3 Liter) version introduced
1990


EV-6 VIN L with one piece rear seal introduced in the FWD Regal
Tuned Intake
1991


3300 version upgraded to one piece rear seal (blocks 25534816, 24502090, 24500498, and crank 25534817)
All 3800s have one piece rear seal
1992


3300 version heads upgraded to same as 3800 but they have one less bolt hole on intake side

[Dominic]

The main caps on this block are cross bolted! This makes an extremely strong and rigid block - cross bolting is typically only seen on extreme competition engines! These cross bolts are visible in Photos 17 & 18, in 18 they are unbolted and slid out for better visibility. So, if you're trying to remove the main caps and you smack them with a hammer and pry with a cold chisel and they still won't budge, and you're thinking "Geez, these things are wedged in there tight!", well, now you know what the problem is! (Now we sure do!)


http://www.thrashercharged.com/L67_htm/engine_tear.shtm

Our engines are quite strong, have a look. :cool: