I think I may know why the 2000+ 3.8s act squirrely

[Guardsman]

ELECTRONIC THROTTLE CONTROL (ETC)
The 3800 Series III features electronic “drive-by-wire” throttle control. With ETC, there is no mechanical link between the accelerator pedal and the throttle. A potentiometer at the gas pedal measures pedal angle and sends a signal to the Throttle Actuator Controller (TAC) module, which is integrated into the throttle body and passes the signal to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). The PCM then directs an electric motor to open the throttle at the appropriate rate. ETC delivers a number of benefits to the customer. It uses several data sources, including the transmission's shift patterns and traction at the drive wheels, in determining how far to open the throttle. ETC delivers outstanding throttle response and greater reliability than a mechanical throttle. Cruise control functions are integrated into the throttle control, reducing the number of engine parts and simplifying assembly.

Further, ETC has been specifically tuned on the Series III to match the sporting character of the Grand Prix. It is programmed with 19 separate throttle maps, or curves, tailored to deliver engine response according to the driving situation. At lower speed the curves are more progressive, for more subdued engine response. During parking lot maneuvers, for example, a given application of the gas pedal will deliver less engine power. At medium to high speeds, the throttle curves are steeper for more aggressive engine response.

Multiple throttle curves mean more immediate—and appropriate—engine response over the full range of driving situations. The benefits are most obvious over 20 mph, where the Series III’s ETC delivers power in a much more linear fashion than a mechanical linkage, with immediate response and virtually no peaks or valleys.

[99CamaroV6]

I didn't read the whole thing but the ETC started in 1999 not 2000 FYI.

[Hugger3800]

I have a 99 and I think ETC sucks. I feel that the computer has too think too much allowing for stumbles and slower reation time at WOT. I also think at slow speeds the engine and transmission do not always allow for smooth and neccesary power transfer, it often feels like a lag time or bogging is occuring. Drive by wire blows and I really feel no difference in how it claims to be so much smoother.

[99CamaroV6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hugger3800:
I have a 99 and I think ETC sucks. I feel that the computer has too think too much allowing for stumbles and slower reation time at WOT. I also think at slow speeds the engine and transmission do not always allow for smooth and neccesary power transfer, it often feels like a lag time or bogging is occuring. Drive by wire blows and I really feel no difference in how it claims to be so much smoother.<hr></blockquote>

do you have Y87? On the 1999 models equipped with the A4 they had "throttle lag" issues. Go to a dealer and ask for the PCM upgrade. I did...it didn't change much but I did see a difference.

[TheFireChicken]

My 2001 ETC runs just fine. Very responsive, works great. My only concern is one of long term reliability. I mean, we all know that electronic components and systems are less reliable than their mechanical counterparts, so I wonder how well the ETC will function in the future. I can see enormous potential for increasing the performance and efficiency of the engine in different driving ranges (varying transmission gears and speeds), as well as road and driving conditions.

[99CamaroV6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheFireChicken:
My 2001 ETC runs just fine. <hr></blockquote>

as it should...they fixed it in 2000. 1999 is the b*stard year! [img]tongue.gif[/img] :(

[zlexiss]

I'd disagree with this, which is why I never buy extended warrantees on my home theater gear.

Electronics generally suffer infant mortality problems, then are reliable for a long life, as there's few to no moving parts to wear out. The airlines discovered they were introducing more problems by replacing electronic assemblies on a scheduled basis rather than leaving in the old ones - the replacements were more likely to fail through infant mortality than by leaving the old components alone.

Yes, they will fail over time - google for terms like "tin whiskers" to see one long-term mechanism caused by the elimination of lead from solder. But mechanical stuff will, in addition to infant mortality, have a pretty well defined life due to wear.

But, agreement here that the 2001 ETC works fine. No lag autocrossing or other problems experienced. My friend with a 2002 VW Golf GTI doesn't like his ETC, maybe GM beat the Germans on something :)

-Jeff

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheFireChicken:
I mean, we all know that electronic components and systems are less reliable than their mechanical counterparts, so I wonder how well the ETC will function in the future. <hr></blockquote>

[Hugger3800]

Can I change my PCM to a 2000+ or will it affect my milage? I hate 1999 3800's PCM program!

[99CamaroV6]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hugger3800:
Can I change my PCM to a 2000+ or will it affect my milage? I hate 1999 3800's PCM program!<hr></blockquote>

not worth it. Our cars are JUST A V6. How much faster you think it'll be with a 2000 pcm. I'll say it'll be the same.

Deal with it. I am. It's not THAT bad. I drove a 2000 and it felt the same to me.

[Guardsman]

Hey,
Sorry I didn't post more on that, I was at work and had to run.

Anyhow, that is from the press release for the 2004 Grand Prix's, and the 3800 Series III (2004 is the beginning year for the Series III).

The L36 is now the L26, and the L67 has become the L32. There's a few changes to the engine, better forged rods (something to look at for upgrading our engines?), a different vibration dampner, etc.

Anyhow, the Series IIIs are getting the ETC now, and that is where this came from. My car has always been sluggish off the line, and I couldn't figure out exactly why. This explains a lot.

As to the reliability of electronic components, they're good and bad. Their general reliability follows an inverted bell-shape. There will be a higher number of failures when the components are new, because of manufacturing defects and other problems. After that, all the bugs are gone, and barring any outside influences, the components will run fine for a while. Then, failures will start to go up again as the components age.

Generally, I'm more concerned about the software failing than I am about components failing, although, with what I've seen from the parts that Chevy installed on these cars, I'm inclined to worry a bit more about the components than I would normally.

Personally, the way I look at it, if it doesn't really need to be made electronic instead of mechanical, then I prefer to keep it mechanical. Mechanical components, if made properly, will be just as likely, if not less likely, to break, than electronic components. But, more importantly, with mechanical components, if they do break, you're not spending 4 hours out in the middle of BFE chasing ghost problems, which is what you get with a lot of electronic components.

The more integrated all of your electronic systems become, the more difficult it is to troubleshoot them, because, unless you know the circuits and software by heart, you won't know how the different systems affect each other.

As an example, there are three throttle control sensors on the gas pedal for the ETC. If two of the sensors develop the same problem(s), the PCM will throw the "Reduced Power" light. Most people, upon seeing that, would probably assume that that indication would be caused by an actual engine malfunction, i.e., ignition, timing control, fuel, etc., and that the PCM was reduing the engine power to protect the engine.

So, you could spend hours checking out all of those systems, not knowing that it was actually the electronic throttle control system that was the problem.

Back to the ETC issue though, if we can find a programmer who can dump those nifty neat-o throttle input maps, and replace them with full power maps, then we would be in a better position to get better times, etc.

[Lord_Verminaard]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zlexiss:

But, agreement here that the 2001 ETC works fine. No lag autocrossing or other problems experienced. My friend with a 2002 VW Golf GTI doesn't like his ETC, maybe GM beat the Germans on something :)

-Jeff

<hr></blockquote>

VW has serious problems with their ETC system. If anyone has ever driven a newer VW, you'll know what I'm talking about. Aside from the Diesels, the ETC is very laggy and has an extremely annoying "safety" feature that will not allow you to depress the gas and brake pedal at the same time. So if you're using heel-toe shifting around a turn and tap the gas while on the brake, the ECM shuts off all fueling to drop the car back down to idle as soon as possible. Now THAT's annoying. Also, if the TPS fails in a VW throttle body, you need to replace the whole housing which can cost anywhere from $700 to $1200, and they fail OFTEN. I've found my 2000 Camaro's ETC to be just fine, the only annoyance is the really laggy tach. [img]tongue.gif[/img] But take the laggy tach, multiply it by two, and that's what a new VW feels like. :eek:

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49

[zlexiss]

This is a problem, but with more than 20% gas pedal (can't say "throttle" anymore :) it's overridden. My friend's trying some left foot braking during autocrosses after getting through rally school, and this is what he needs to do..

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lord_Verminaard:


VW has serious problems with their ETC system. If anyone has ever driven a newer VW, you'll know what I'm talking about. Aside from the Diesels, the ETC is very laggy and has an extremely annoying "safety" feature that will not allow you to depress the gas and brake pedal at the same time. So if you're using heel-toe shifting around a turn and tap the gas while on the brake, the ECM shuts off all fueling to drop the car back down to idle as soon as possible. Now THAT's annoying. Also, if the TPS fails in a VW throttle body, you need to replace the whole housing which can cost anywhere from $700 to $1200, and they fail OFTEN. I've found my 2000 Camaro's ETC to be just fine, the only annoyance is the really laggy tach. [img]tongue.gif[/img] But take the laggy tach, multiply it by two, and that's what a new VW feels like. :eek:

Brendan
2000 Camaro L36 M49<hr></blockquote>

[MustangEater8251]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Guardsman:
[QB] The L36 is now the L26, and the L67 has become the L32. There's a few changes to the engine, better forged rods (something to look at for upgrading our engines?), a different vibration dampner, etc.

[QB]<hr></blockquote>


Is that true? Cool so when someone asks what motr I have in my camaro I cna say the L32, and people might think its the motor from the 04 GTP :metal: instead of my 3.4L?

[Camarorulz]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Guardsman:
The L36 is now the L26, and the L67 has become the L32. There's a few changes to the engine, better forged rods (something to look at for upgrading our engines?), a different vibration dampner, etc.<hr></blockquote>

You're kidding right? If you're not, you have no credibility again, ever.

[jamie]

why doesn't he have credibility?