Engine starts & dies imediately

[ngb]

Hello
I searched this subject but have already addresed things I found. I am totally stumped with this problem and need help Badly. My daughters 95' 3.4 5-speed Camaro has had this problem from about 6 months after we bought it and has gotten more frequent. We have owned going on 2 years now. It will start then die immediately for about 20 times, when it does stay running it may run for 1/2 to 2 miles and then start buck jumping, if you give more throttle it will die and when let off it will start buck jumping again. Keep in mind that it does not do this every time we go to drive it but is so often now we are afraid of being stranded on side of road. Seem to happen most often in the cool of the morning when the engine is cold.
I have had it to the Chevy dealer 2 times and 1 time at an independent garage, they can’t find the problem. I am a half *** mechanic and the cars I work on as a hobby are 2nd gen. Camaros and 70-72 Chevelles, I have built a few engines for myself and know my way around under the hood of the older cars.
Here is a run down of the many parts I have bought new to try to fix this problem, some where replaced as preventative maintenance as it has 110 K miles on it.

Fuel pump (fun job)
2- fuel filter
IAC motor
Ignition module
computer (used)
checked fuel pressure this morning
spark plug wires
altonater
crank position sensor ( both of them)
cam shaft position sensor
cleaned EGR valve

Probably more but I can't think of them right now.

Please reply if you have any ideas.
Thanks Nick

[kahouna23]

Have you possibly considered the possibility that you have valves that aren't functioning properly? Is there any abnormal engine noise? I would think a valve sticking would cause something like this. Actually sufficating the engine. Exhaust valves are notorious of these conditions on older cars. I'm sure you've heard of it. Being a 95' the possibility is always there that the valves or valve springs called it quits. Other than that, I would say it's a clogged fuel line, but you said you checked the fuel pressure already. Did it check okay? Check it in the rail and before the pressure regulator. I'm totally going out on a limb, but hopefully it's of some help....

Good luck. PLease let us know when you figure it out.

[ngb]

Fuel preasure key on 42lbs.
Fuel preasure @ idle 37lbs.
Fuel preasure @RPM increase 40-42lbs.
With gauge hooked on fuel rail at schrader valve.
Engine has lots of power for a v-6 but no valve train noise.
I left gauge hooked to motor and drove it for about 50 miles this afternoon and did not have a bit of trouble. Preasure was at 35lbs. or higher at all times and i even beat on it a little bit.
Thanks Nick

[chas]

well it still sounds like a fuel problem to me. i didnt see if you replaced the fuel pressure regulator. keep the gauge on the engine (duct tape it to the window for that professional look [img]smile.gif[/img] ). the pressure seems low to me, but i dont know the typical values for your year. i have had interrmittent fuel pumps that are difficult to track down. sometimes the damn thing just wont completely break.

otherwise, i would start guessing electrical somewhere. did they get any codes from your pcm? (i am guessing it obd-i, you might be able to pull them yourself). possibly you have a wire loose (or grounding) and its sending bad data to the pcm or failing to get spark out to the cylinders.

[ngb]

Chas
I have a Actutron code scanner for obd1 and another for obd2 but niether will work. I know the pcm is a obd1 because that is what it says on emissions sticker on radiator support. The best I can figure the data link connecter is for obd2 with 16 pins. Must be the change over period from the old to the new stuff for the next year, anyways there must be some kind of a adapter to use the obd1 scanner. I have left the fuel preasure gauge on the car hanging out the back of the hood where i can see the face. Drove again this morning & again this evening with no trouble. I will continue to drive it untill I figure this out with yalls help.
Thanks Nick

[O2Bsogood]

Have you changed your plugs yet? If you haven't it might be a good idea, if you have check and see if you didn't accidently push the ground electrode into the center electrode or maybe crack a plug. A cracked plug can cause bad starts and bucking and stuttering and sometimes not throw an ses light. Just some suggestions.

[chas]

the dealership should have been able to pull any codes (although unlikely they would be willing to tell you about them i suppose since you are 'stupid consumer').

i thought you could get the obd-i pcm's to flash the codes on the check engine light. you short two of the pins on the diag connector:

URL=http://sethirdgen.org/dtc.htm]http://sethirdgen.org/dtc.htm[/URL]

please note, i have never done this. i have an obd-ii. my obd-i mopar though does something very similar. its somewhat useful if cryptic.

the cracked plug idea isnt bad. i get a fair bit of condensation in the morning. you could be getting arcing. if you used dieletric grease on the plug boots though this probably isnt your problem.

[ngb]

Thanks for your help guys. Here is the latest update, I still have the fuel preasure gauge hooked up and running out at base of windsheild so I can see the face.I was going to drive it to work this morning but before I got to the end of the driveway it started the dieing thing again. The fuel preasure never did drop while this was happening so I feel It has to be a ignition or some type of electrical problem.
Thanks Nick

[PewterBird]

GM Service Bulletin from GM Service
Manual

COLD ENGINE START & STALL CLOSED THROTTLE IDLE SURGE #57-65-30
SUBJECT: COLD ENGINE START AND STALL, CLOSED THROTTLE IDLE SURGE IN GEAR (INSTALL A.I.R. KIT, FLASH PROM AND THREE WAY CATALYTIC CONVERTER)

MODELS: 1994-95 CHEVROLET CAMARO 1994-95 PONTIAC FIREBIRD WITH 3.4L PUSHROD V6 ENGINE (VIN S - RPO L32) AND AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION (RPO MD8)

CONDITION:

SOME OWNERS MAY COMMENT THAT THEIR VEHICLE STARTS AND STALLS ON THE INITIAL COLD START OF THE DAY. OTHERS MAY COMMENT ON A CLOSED THROTTLE IDLE SURGE WHEN THE VEHICLE IS IN GEAR. THIS USUALLY OCCURS IN A PARKING LOT SLOW DRIVING/IDLING AROUND A PARKING LOT MANEUVER. BOTH CONDITIONS TYPICALLY OCCUR IN A 68-89 DEGREE F AMBIENT TEMPERATURE RANGE.

CAUSE:

DUE TO VARIATION IN INDIVIDUAL COMPONENTS AND GASOLINES AVAILABLE IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE A POWERTRAIN THAT, WHEN THESE THINGS ARE STACKED TOGETHER, PERFORMS TEMPORARILY IN A LEAN MODE AND CREATES THE CONDITIONS DESCRIBED ABOVE.

CORRECTION:

TO ADDRESS THIS TEMPORARY LEAN RUNNING CONDITION DURING WARM UP, A NEW FLASH CALIBRATION HAS BEEN DEVELOPED. THIS NEW CALIBRATION RICHENS THE OPEN-LOOP AIR/FUEL RATIO AT 20 C TO 32 DEGREE C RANGE (68 - 89 F). TO ENSURE COMPLIANCE WITH FEDERALLY MANDATED EMISSION LEVELS, AN A.I.R. (AIR INJECTION REACTION) KIT HAS BEEN DEVELOPED ALONG WITH A NEW THREE WAY CATALYTIC CONVERTER. IF, AFTER EXHAUSTING NORMAL DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURES, IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE A.I.R. KIT ALONG WITH THE CALIBRATION IS NECESSARY TO CORRECT THE VEHICLE, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURE SHOULD BE USED TO INSTALL THE A.I.R. KIT. FIGURES 1 AND 2 ARE A PICTORIAL OF THE PARTS INSTALLED IN THE KIT.

REMOVE OR DISCONNECT

1. BATTERY NEGATIVE CABLE

2. CROSS CAR AIR INLET DUCT

3. SUITABLY SUPPORT VEHICLE AND RAISE

4. EXHAUST PIPE BOLTS AT EXHAUST PIPE TO THREE WAY CATALYTIC CONVERTER FLANGE

5. EXHAUST CROSSOVER PIPE NUTS

6. CONVERTER HANGER BOLTS

7. EXHAUST CROSSOVER PIPE ASSEMBLY FROM STUDS ON EXHAUST MANIFOLDS

8. LOWER EXHAUST SYSTEM

9. A/C COMPRESSOR REAR BRACKET BOLTS TO CYLINDER BLOCK

10. REAR TWO RIGHT EXHAUST MANIFOLD BOLTS

11. LOWER VEHICLE

12. ACCESSORY DRIVE BELT

13. OXYGEN SENSOR CONNECTOR

14. GENERATOR POSITIVE CABLE

15. ELECTRICAL CONNECTORS FROM GENERATOR

16. GENERATOR REAR BRACE ("S" BRACE)

17. GENERATOR ASSEMBLY

18. A/C COMPRESSOR FROM FRONT BRACKET AND REPOSITION

19. GENERATOR "Y" BRACE

20. #1 SPARK PLUG WIRE

21. EGR ELECTRICAL CONNECTOR, EGR ADAPTER AND FLEX PIPE

22. RIGHT EXHAUST MANIFOLD FRONT AND MIDDLE BOLTS

23. RIGHT EXHAUST MANIFOLD ASSEMBLY, HEAT SHIELDS AND GASKETS

INSTALL

1. TRANSFER OXYGEN SENSOR FROM OLD MANIFOLD AND RE-INSTALL USING NEW OXYGEN SENSOR GASKET, TIGHTEN SENSOR TO 42 N.M (31 LB FT)

2. EXHAUST MANIFOLD GASKET

3. EXHAUST MANIFOLD ASSEMBLY AND HEAT SHIELDS

IMPORTANT: REAR SHIELD MUST BE IN PLACE WHEN INSTALLING MANIFOLD. THE REAR SHIELD CAN BE HELD IN PLACE BY MOMENTARILY INSTALLING THE EGR ADAPTER STUD AND NUT.

4. RIGHT EXHAUST MANIFOLD BOLTS/SCREWS, TIGHTEN TO 25 N.M (18 LB FT)

5. PLACE BAFFLE IN RIGHT EXHAUST MANIFOLD A.I.R. PIPE HOLE. INSTALL EGR ADAPTER AND FLEX PIPE, TIGHTEN ADAPTER STUD AND BOLT TO 26 N.M (19 LB FT), TIGHTEN FLEX PIPE TO INLET MANIFOLD BOLTS TO 26 N.M (19 LB FT).

6. ROUTE A.I.R. PIPE BEHIND ENGINE AND BETWEEN ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION FILL TUBE, TIGHTEN PIPE NUT

7. A/C COMPRESSOR TO BRACKET, TIGHTEN BOLTS TO 50 N.M (37 LB FT)

8. GENERATOR "Y" BRACE, TIGHTEN BOLTS AT GENERATOR TO 50 N.M (37 LB FT)

9. GENERATOR REAR (S) BRACE, TIGHTEN NUT AT GENERATOR TO 50 N.M (37 LB FT), NUT AT EGR ADAPTER STUD TO 25 N.M (18 LB FT), TIGHTEN LONG BOLT /NUT AT GENERATOR PIVOT TO 50 N.M (37 LB FT).

10. ELECTRICAL CONNECTORS AT GENERATOR

11. POSITIVE CABLE AT GENERATOR

12. OXYGEN SENSOR ELECTRICAL CONNECTOR

13. ACCESSORY DRIVE BELT

14. SECONDARY AIR INJECTION PIPE, SECURE WITH 1 BOLT, P/N 11515763, AT LEFT CYLINDER HEAD, TIGHTEN BOLT TO 50 N.M (37 LB FT).

15. CHECK VALVE TO SECONDARY AIR INJECTION PIPE ASSEMBLY, TIGHTEN TO 19 N.M (14 LB FT).

16. 90 DEGREE CHECK VALVE HOSE FROM CHECK VALVE TO SECONDARY AIR INJECTION CHECK VALVE PIPE BRACKET WITH CLAMPS

17. REMOVE LEFT EXHAUST MANIFOLD TOP CENTER POSITION BOLT AND INSTALL STUD P/N 10191776, TIGHTEN TO 25 N.M (18 LB FT).

18. SECONDARY AIR INJECTION CHECK VALVE PIPE BRACKET TO STUD, INSTALL NUT, 11514518, TIGHTEN TO 25 N.M (18 LB FT).

19. CROSS CAR AIR INLET DUCT

20. LOCATE ELECTRICAL CONNECTOR FOR AIR PUMP TYPICALLY TUCKED UP NEAR THE RELAY AND FUSE CENTER ON THE LEFT FRONT FENDER WELL, ROUTE THE HARNESS TO THE AIR PUMP LOCATION NEXT TO THE STEPPER MOTOR CRUISE MOTOR ON THE LEFT FRONT FRAME RAIL

21. SUITABLY SUPPORT AND RAISE VEHICLE

22. TIGHTEN REAR MANIFOLD BOLTS TO 25 N.M (18 LB FT).

23. REAR A/C COMPRESSOR BRACE TO ENGINE BOLTS, TIGHTEN TO 50 N.M (37 LB FT).

24. INSTALL NEW THREE WAY CATALYTIC CONVERTER TO EXHAUST "Y" PIPE, TIGHTEN CLAMP TO 68 N.M (50 LB FT).

25. RAISE CROSS OVER PIPE WITH CONVERTER INTO POSITION, INSTALL EXHAUST HANGER TO CONVERTER, TIGHTEN BOLTS TO 41 N.M (30 LB FT).

26. Y PIPE WITH SEALS TO EXHAUST MANIFOLD, TIGHTEN NUTS EVENLY TO 35 N.M (26 LB FT).

27. TIGHTEN CONVERTER FLANGE TO EXHAUST PIPE BOLTS TO 20 N.M (15 LB FT).

28. REMOVE 2 BOLTS FROM STEPPER MOTOR CRUISE BRACKET, INSTALL 2 NEW STUDS, P/N 10186163.

29. INSTALL AIR PUMP BRACKET USING 2 NUTS, P/N 11505005. USE 1 BOLT, P/N 10222298.

30. AIR PUMP TO BRACKET, USING 3 BOLTS P/N 11513677, TIGHTEN TO 12 N.M (9 LB FT).

31. SECONDARY AIR INJECTION PUMP HOSE AND SECONDARY AIR INJECTION PUMP AIR CLEANER HOSE, SECURE WITH 2 CLAMPS TO AIR PUMP.

32. ELECTRICAL CONNECTOR TO AIR PUMP

33. LOWER VEHICLE

34. CONNECT AIR HOSE FROM PUMP TO CROSS CAR DUCT, SECURE WITH 1 CLAMP

35. CONNECT HOSE FROM AIR PUMP TO AIR PIPE AT MANIFOLD. SECURE WITH 1 CLAMP.

36. BATTERY NEGATIVE CABLE

37. INSTALL NEW FLASH CALIBRATION

38. INSTALL NEW EMISSION LABEL (SEE CHART FOR CORRECT LABEL APPLICATION)

39. START ENGINE AND CHECK FOR LEAKS

PARTS INFORMATION

THE NEW CALIBRATION NUMBER WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR TECHLINE TOOLS STARTING WITH THE JANUARY 1996 CD #1 RELEASE FROM THE GM SERVICE TECHNOLOGY GROUP (STG).

IMPORTANT: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ORDER THE CALIBRATION NUMBERS FROM GMSPO. THE CALIBRATIONS ARE PROGRAMMED INTO THE VEHICLE'S POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE VIA A TECHLINE TOOL DEVICE.

A PHONE CALL WILL BE REQUIRED TO PROPERLY REPROGRAM THE VEHICLE WITH THE NEW CALIBRATION. CALL THE TECHLINE CUSTOMER SUPPORT CENTER (TCSC) AT: ENGLISH 1-800-828-6860 FRENCH 1-800-503-3222

YOU WILL NEED THE VEHICLE'S VIN AND THE NEW CALIBRATION PART NUMBER WHEN YOU CALL TCSC. TCSC WILL PROVIDE YOU A SPECIAL NUMBER. THIS NUMBER IS CALLED A VCI WHICH STANDS FOR VEHICLE CONFIGURATION INDEX. THIS NUMBER IS UNIQUE FOR EACH VEHICLE. THE NUMBER WILL UPDATE THE PCM WITH THE NEW CALIBRATION. TCSC WILL ALSO UPDATE THEIR DATA BASE SO THAT A PHONE CALL WILL NOT BE REQUIRED AFTER THE NEXT CD DISC RELEASE.

MODEL CARLINE TRANS. EMISSIONS CALIBRATION YEAR NUMBER

94-95 F AUTO NATIONWIDE 16236044

THE A.I.R. KIT, P/N 12539090, WILL BE AVAILABLE FROM GMSPO AFTER FEBRUARY 5, 1996. THE KIT WILL CONSIST OF THE FOLLOWING PARTS:

QTY NAME

1 A.I.R. PUMP

1 THREE WAY CATALYTIC CONVERTER

1 RIGHT EXHAUST MANIFOLD

1 A.I.R. PIPE

1 BAFFLE

1 CHECK VALVE PIPE

1 CHECK VALVE HOSE

1 CHECK VALVE

1 A.I.R. PUMP BRACKET

1 HOSE

2 CLAMP

1 HOSE

1 DUCT

2 CLAMP

2 CLAMP

1 OXYGEN SENSOR GASKET

QTY P/N NAME

1 10191776 STUD

3 11513677 SCREWS

1 11515763 BOLT

1 11514518 NUT

1 10222298 BOLT/SCREW

2 10186163 STUD

2 11505005 NUT

1 24506650 EMISSION LABEL (94 FEDERAL CODE TNT)

1 24506651 EMISSION LABEL (94 CALIFORNIA TBS)

1 24506652 EMISSION LABEL (95 FEDERAL NFB)

1 24506653 EMISSION LABEL (95 CALIFORNIA NFE)

WARRANTY INFORMATION

FOR VEHICLES REPAIRED UNDER WARRANTY, USE:

LABOR CODE: J6355 PROM, REPROGRAMMING

LABOR TIME: USE PUBLISHED LABOR OPERATION TIME.

LABOR CODE : T2496 INSTALL A.I.R. KIT

LABOR TIME: 2.8 HRS

EMISSION LABEL CHART

BROADCAST CODE EMISSIONS YEAR

TNT FEDERAL 94

TBS CALIFORNIA 94

NFB FEDERAL 95

NFE CALIFORNIA 95

FIGURES: 2 ATTACHMENTS: 0

Figure 1

Figure 2

GENERAL MOTORS BULLETINS ARE INTENDED FOR USE BY PROFESSIONAL TECHNICIANS, NOT A "DO-IT-YOURSELFER". THEY ARE WRITTEN TO INFORM THOSE TECHNICIANS OF CONDITIONS THAT MAY OCCUR ON SOME VEHICLES, OR TO PROVIDE INFORMATION THAT COULD ASSIST IN THE PROPER SERVICE OF A VEHICLE. PROPERLY TRAINED TECHNICIANS HAVE THE EQUIPMENT, TOOLS, SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS AND KNOW-HOW TO DO A JOB PROPERLY AND SAFELY. IF A CONDITION IS DESCRIBED, DO NOT ASSUME THAT THE BULLETIN APPLIES TO YOUR VEHICLE, OR THAT YOUR VEHICLE WILL HAVE THAT CONDITION. SEE A GENERAL MOTORS DEALER SERVICING YOUR BRAND OF GENERAL MOTORS VEHICLE FOR INFORMATION ON WHETHER YOUR VEHICLE MAY BENEFIT FROM THE INFORMATION.

COPYRIGHT 1996. GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

© Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

[ May 27, 2003: Message edited by: PewterBird ]</p>