Headers vs "Tubular Manifolds"

[rhouse21]

Ok, I know I might be asking a dumb question here, but as a newbie I guess I'm entitled to at least one. :D

I've just recently learned that GM changed from the cast-iron exhaust manifolds that we all know and love to new "tubular manifolds" for the last few years of production. Does anyone know how these things compare to a set of aftermarket headers? Will they fit on earlier year 3.8's? Would they be worth a trip down to my favorite junkyard or are they a complete waste of time?

Also, does anyone know if the Y87 exhaust gives you any more power at the rear wheels than the stock setup? Mine feels a lot stronger off the line than the "normal" 3800s I've driven, but I'd always attributed that to the better gearing, LSD, intake, and Mobil 1. I love the sound of my exhaust, but a little piece of me has been looking for an excuse to trade up to a Borla or B&B. It'll be pretty hard to justify the expense though if the only differences are a little throatier sound and shinier tips.

-If you can't stomp 'em in the straights, kill 'em in the corners...

[99v6cam]

From what I've heard you need to make some changes to get the tubular manifolds on older cars (ones that didnt come with em). Headers will give you better gains anyway for less hassle. As for the exhaust, if it does put more power to the rear wheels its no more than 1 or 2 horsepower.

[rhouse21]

So I should definately feel the difference trading up to a Borla or B&B (or Flowmaster for that matter)?

BTW, do you know of anyone who's done before and after dyno runs of any of the various cat-backs out there? I've seen lots of talk about the improved sound and seat-of-the-pants improvements, but very little hard data to help me decide which way to go.

[Perry]

Grab some pacesetters and leave the stock exhaust on, then add a Q-Tec cutout and you will be fine as far as performance goes.

If you want better gas mileage, consider a car sound catalytic converter, and the B&B, on top of the headers.

[carmelcarswholesale]

just a quick note based on our experience...with a 2000 Y87 Camaro we rear wheel dynoed on a Dynojet 248 at 161 rwhp....adding a computer tune from Texas Speed and their Rumbler cat back system bumped the rwhp up to almost 190 rwhp...pretty darned impressive for $500 total investment...we have the "tubular" cast iron stock mnaifolds and based only on visual design difference between the pre-2000 manifold design I'd estimate a few rwhp difference...but not enough fo the hassle of changing them...go with headers, after you do the computer tune and catback from Texas Speed..Richard

[grayman]

if you arleady have 'tubes' then you can move headers further down the list of mods.

if you have log manifolds then aftermarket headers are the way to go and should be at of near the top of the mod list. IMO

[FirebirdGT]

Originally posted by rhouse21:
Does anyone know how these things compare to a set of aftermarket headers? Will they fit on earlier year 3.8's? Would they be worth a trip down to my favorite junkyard or are they a complete waste of time?

They do not fit a 97, without modification to the A/C lines. Waste of time.

Originally posted by rhouse21:
Also, does anyone know if the Y87 exhaust gives you any more power at the rear wheels than the stock setup?

Not really, replaced my stock with a Y87 system, then with a B&B.

[rhouse21]

Ok, from what I'm hearing, visiting the junkyard for some late model manifolds would be a lot of work for very little gain, so I guess I'll add a set of Pacesetters to my X-mas list.

I'm still unclear about the exhaust, though. I found a dyno test of the B&B triflo's on FirebirdGT's web site (http://www.firebirdgt.com/BB.htm) that claimed 144 rwhp for a stock "normal" 1996 Camaro & 162 rwhp with a B&B exhaust. If Camel's data is right, my Y87 should be at about the same level as the B&B Camaros. No offense to Camel, but that seems a bit weird to me. Granted, every dyno is a little differrent, but are you sure that that 2000 Y87 was bone stock or did it have some extra goodies under the hood? If it was truely stock, it looks like I might want to just stop at headers.

Camel: To be honest, I'm a little nervous about having my computer tuned. I'm not really familiar with any of the companies I've found on the Internet who claim to be able to do the job. From what I understand, many "tuners" just get more power by dumping more fuel in the cylinders at wide-open-throttle. I know the hypertechs tune the engine the "right" way, but they don't have one for my year and don't seem interested in making one.

I've got almost 202k miles on my car, which is my daily driver, and I still get ~28-30 mpg on the highway. Right now the car is set up more for handling and I was looking mainly at mods that would boost my output by making the engine perform more efficiently (intake, exhaust, driveline, etc.). I'd hate to get 20+ rwhp but wreck driveability or kill my mileage. If any of you guys can vouch for a good engine tuner, I'd like to check 'em out.

[ August 26, 2005, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: rhouse21 ]

[grayman]

Headers, aluminum drive shaft, 8 mm wires, 2.5" exhaust, (3" works too...) CAI can be an ugly affair on the angled TB cars...

gas mileage should not suffer with above mods. it might even improve a bit.

[carmelcarswholesale]

The 1997 up Camaros (CA versions) are upgraded over prior years (no matter the advertised "200HP" from the factory at the flywheel figures)....we've put four different V6 Camaros on the dyno with no mods other than cat back system (with stock GM cat - new), K/N air filter, sythetic fluids from front to rear and a Texas Speed computer tune...all four cars (1999 and two 2000 and a 2001) were within 5 horsepower of each other stock between 158 and 163 rwhp and the increases were right around 28-30 rwhp across the board....milage on all three cars was between 40,000 and 60,000 with good engines...now as to dyno variations across the country...there isn't any if the dyno operator uses the standard correction factors as per Dynojet...that's the reason the Dynojet 248 is so popular...same reading in Carmel, CA as in Washington, DC...I don't know about the tests B/B used or the particulars but in our multiple car tests we found the Texas Speed computer tune that Jason worked up for us over several trials to be phenomenal across the entire rpm range..not just at the top...Jason delivered as per our specifications for a tune that was for a street car, not a 1/4 mile car...the first car used a Car chemistry insert behind the cat and after that we used the Texas Speed Rumbler catback system which was worth a 4-5 rwhp difference over the CC insert....we also have taken one of these cars to the max with Abbott Racing Heads and Abbott manifolds, cam etc...now that's real horsepower..and again, real streetable....to reiterate..if you have under $500 to spend and want something that will give you around 30 rwhp you can't go wrong with a Texas Speed setup...pop the computer in yourself in 2 minutes and have the local muffler shop install the cat back in 20 minutes...and if you want real horsepower go with the above and the Abbott package and headers and for around $3000 total you have a 260 rwhp Mustang killer stealth car....Richard

[Loochy88]

Originally posted by carmelcarswholesale:
The 1997 up Camaros (CA versions) are upgraded over prior years

are you sure you dont mean 99+ cars.

if not, youre saying only 96 3.8's are putting out poor numbers (since almost all 95's were 3.4's).

[rhouse21]

Two years and 50,000 miles ago, I was living in Lancaster, CA and put my car on the Superflow Autodyn dyno at R&E Racing to get a good baseline. What I didn't know was that I had some bad bearings in my diff, a bad carrier bearing in my good old 2-pice drive shaft, and a leaking lower intake manifold gasket. :( Still, I recorded 138 rwhp @ 4793 rpm and 159.6 lb-ft of torque at 4075 rpm. Not great, but not bad considering how much drag those bad bearings must have been adding to my driveline.

Since then I've had the diff rebuilt, had a custom 1-piece drive shaft fitted by a local driveline shop (no, it isn't aluminum, but it's still lighter than stock), gone to Mobil 1 rear lube in the diff (to go along with the Mobile 1 in the engine), and had the manifold gasket fixed. It honestly feels like a new car and my G-Tech consistantly calculated 150-160 rwhp at Lancaster's elevation of 2200 ft. [img]graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

I haven't found a good location here in DC that's flat and police-free enough to get some good G-Tech runs now that I'm back at sea-level, but I've found a good hp correction calculator on the web that tells me that I should see about 10% more rwhp here than in Lancaster. Of course I guess the best thing to do would be to just find a good local dyno facility and just rebaseline the car now that everything is back in good working order.

Camel: I think I'll give the guys at Texas Speed a call to gather a little more info. If they're as good as you say, it sounds like a really good bang for the buck. BTW, how was the mileage affected by the new computers? Any difference? I think I still like Borla or B&B for the exhaust, though. (No offense to the Rumbler exhaust, I just like the sound and reputation of the other two.)

BTW, I made a video of the dyno run if any of you wanna hear what a Y87 exhaust sounds like running flat out. (I'll throw a Web link into the sound clip thread.)

[ August 29, 2005, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: rhouse21 ]

[rhouse21]

I've posted the video in 3 different sizes to be considerate of folk's connection speeds. Let me know what you think of the sound.

Large Video (~5 MB)
http://home.comcast.net/~rhouse21/Vi...Test_Large.wmv

Smaller Video (~2 MB)
http://home.comcast.net/~rhouse21/Dyno_Test_Small.wmv

Crappy Video w/Good Audio (~700 KB)
http://home.comcast.net/~rhouse21/Dy...Good_Sound.wmv

[carmelcarswholesale]

Regarding my statement about the 1997 California Camaros...they had the same engines as 1998 up in the rest of the country due to California imposing smog standards for 1997....or so my fading memory remembers...I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time...Richard

[Speed Freak]

I just dynoed my car yesterday It was 85F out with 70 percent humidity at sea level.
my best run was 175hp 225tq at around 3800rpm.
that's with all the mods listed . it was on a very precisely tuned dynojet at race car builders shop.