short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

[Pewter02Camaro]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

Figured i'd bring this thread back seeing as i just purchased a set of FFF longtubes From Patrick aka Linxs. I am looking foreward to putting my setup together.

Patrick also asked me to pass along the following...

"I have reduced the price to 600. Feel free to tell others. Once they are gone I will not make any more."

If you dont belive me feel free to ask him yourself. ;)

Actually comes to about $620 after you factor in the extra to cover the 3% paypal fee, if you use paypal.

So i suggest that anybody still intrested in getting a set do so or you may be out of luck later on down the line.

[ssms5411]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

Not to be a d!ck or anything but the reg. headers for our cars just about put down the same dyno #'s as those long tubes ot they were even. I think they should of made them with 1.75" primaries and I think they would have gotten more power out of them. But I do believe if you have alot of mods and are going to be runnning the bottle they would help out alot more, but for a stock -bolt on car the reg. headers should be fine. I have had my RK Sport headers for almost 10 years now , and they still look good(also have 1.75" primaries). Becuase I looked at the GTP's and the headers they produce for their cars and some cams and mods say to use 1.75" headers for best results , their have been prople saying that 1.75" is too big , and I can tell you from riding in my car that they are not. I'm trying to make it down and get a dyno with my VS cam. When I do I'll post the results, this will be in 110+ temps and the place is 45 mins. from me so it will be hot.LOL Again not bashing the long tubes they look good got the bling to them, LOL Kinda of like the chineese OBX headers but longer.LOL

[Pewter02Camaro]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

LOL, I aint scared... dont worry no offense taken steve.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

Not to be a d!ck or anything but the reg. headers for our cars just about put down the same dyno #'s as those long tubes ot they were even. I think they should of made them with 1.75" primaries and I think they would have gotten more power out of them. But I do believe if you have alot of mods and are going to be runnning the bottle they would help out alot more, but for a stock -bolt on car the reg. headers should be fine. I have had my RK Sport headers for almost 10 years now , and they still look good(also have 1.75" primaries). Becuase I looked at the GTP's and the headers they produce for their cars and some cams and mods say to use 1.75" headers for best results , their have been prople saying that 1.75" is too big , and I can tell you from riding in my car that they are not. I'm trying to make it down and get a dyno with my VS cam. When I do I'll post the results, this will be in 110+ temps and the place is 45 mins. from me so it will be hot.LOL Again not bashing the long tubes they look good got the bling to them, LOL Kinda of like the chineese OBX headers but longer.LOL

you have to remember

they swaped the header and did not do ANY retuning at all. plus this was the first production set they where testing the driver side header was hitting metal on the car causing false KR on these dyno pulls.

dans car picked up a .3 na and nearly .5 with the spray....... with the full production set that fit correctly

what other mods can you do for a now $600 and pick up .2 or 3?

grears is about it, maybe a cam but it wont run without a tune, and that pushing it cost wise

[97rs4life]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

you also have to look at more than just peak hp/tq numbers. look at the rest of the curve and you will see that the longtubes are definitely worth it.

[ssms5411]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

you have to remember

they swaped the header and did not do ANY retuning at all. plus this was the first production set they where testing the driver side header was hitting metal on the car causing false KR on these dyno pulls.

dans car picked up a .3 na and nearly .5 with the spray....... with the full production set that fit correctly

what other mods can you do for a now $600 and pick up .2 or 3?

grears is about it, maybe a cam but it wont run without a tune, and that pushing it cost wise

you also have to look at more than just peak hp/tq numbers. look at the rest of the curve and you will see that the longtubes are definitely worth it.




This is why I said if their going to have nitrous or something they would be great , but for a stock 3.8 no other engine mods the longtubes would be overkill and overpriced. They should of fixed their problems and tune it if their going to try and sell a product, if not they get compared to pacesetter headers, and now they won't be making them. This is why I post I'm not trying to bash them or be a d!CK in my post just going by what was posted. Guys don't like the RK Sport headers but I love them , people just didn't take the time to put 3 bolt flanges on them and there are zero leaks and flow very well with the bigger primaries. I'm just giving my opinion , people can buy what they want.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

you also have to look at more than just peak hp/tq numbers. look at the rest of the curve and you will see that the longtubes are definitely worth it.




This is why I said if their going to have nitrous or something they would be great , but for a stock 3.8 no other engine mods the longtubes would be overkill and overpriced. They should of fixed their problems and tune it if their going to try and sell a product, if not they get compared to pacesetter headers, and now they won't be making them. This is why I post I'm not trying to bash them or be a d!CK in my post just going by what was posted. Guys don't like the RK Sport headers but I love them , people just didn't take the time to put 3 bolt flanges on them and there are zero leaks and flow very well with the bigger primaries. I'm just giving my opinion , people can buy what they want.

id rather pay $1000 for head i don't have to **** with then $250 for one that need work.......

and why would put on long tubes with no other mods, and even for a stock car they still made good amount more power under the curve then the others

[ssms5411]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

I think if someone would of dynoed the RK headers they would have came out on top or pretty close with the bigger flowing primaries, but maybe it would have to be modded like the GTP's to go up to 1.75's. Just like on the GTP's at a certain point in modding they recommend running the 1.75's over the 1.5" primaries. Again this is my opinon and not FTV6 where people have to get out of hand and argue over little sh!t becuase they think they know it all, everyone has a differnet opinion on everything. It just makes since more flow in and out of the engine is going to create more HP. I would of thought for sure if someone is gong to do long tubes they should do it right in 1.75" instead of 1.5, or did I read that they couldn't get the 1.75's to fit becuase of the steering knuckle or somehthing like that. Damm made in China products can't fit right.

For my heads, John at Intense is going to cut me a outstanding deal since I'm trying the frist Manely Blanks using the .3136 stems and using their CNC'd stage 3 heads which have some outstanding flow #'s to 6000 RPMS , where I have it shifting. Which he said I could even use them in N/A form until I get my turbo since the VS cam has a decent exhaust duration at 216 and basicly having very little back pressure with the 1.75" primaries and open 3" exhasut before the axle. Should even be better with the turbo on it. I wasn't going to go all out with my car but since I have all the parts with some extra stuff and money and a few mechanics who either do it for free or maybe some beers , 2 for the engine , a tranny guy to swap my TQ convertor and built tranny in and a guy who will swap a 9" with 3.50 gears in it rear. I might as well see what it will do , will have to be this winter though, 115-120 degree temps during the day and 105 at midnight still is kinda hard on turbo engines even with a 250 PSI pump for methanol and 1.5 gallon tank.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

I think if someone would of dynoed the RK headers they would have came out on top or pretty close with the bigger flowing primaries, but maybe it would have to be modded like the GTP's to go up to 1.75's. Just like on the GTP's at a certain point in modding they recommend running the 1.75's over the 1.5" primaries. Again this is my opinon and not FTV6 where people have to get out of hand and argue over little sh!t becuase they think they know it all, everyone has a differnet opinion on everything. It just makes since more flow in and out of the engine is going to create more HP. I would of thought for sure if someone is gong to do long tubes they should do it right in 1.75" instead of 1.5, or did I read that they couldn't get the 1.75's to fit becuase of the steering knuckle or somehthing like that. Damm made in China products can't fit right.

That's the thing the 1.75 may have more area but they no not have the velocity to scavenge the bang room as effectively.

They never tried the 1.75, v8's can fit 2.0 for them so i'm sure a v6 bay can easily fit 1.75 :rolleyes:

1.75 moves the power curve up in the RPM band and you'd have to spin it higher to make effective use of it.

And they where not made in china. selling them at $600 pat is loosing like $300 per set

For my heads, John at Intense is going to cut me a outstanding deal since I'm trying the frist Manely Blanks using the .3136 stems and using their CNC'd stage 3 heads which have some outstanding flow #'s to 6000 RPMS , where I have it shifting. Which he said I could even use them in N/A form until I get my turbo since the VS cam has a decent exhaust duration at 216 and basicly having very little back pressure with the 1.75" primaries and open 3" exhasut before the axle. Should even be better with the turbo on it. I wasn't going to go all out with my car but since I have all the parts with some extra stuff and money and a few mechanics who either do it for free or maybe some beers , 2 for the engine , a tranny guy to swap my TQ convertor and built tranny in and a guy who will swap a 9" with 3.50 gears in it rear. I might as well see what it will do , will have to be this winter though, 115-120 degree temps during the day and 105 at midnight still is kinda hard on turbo engines even with a 250 PSI pump for methanol and 1.5 gallon tank.

there is some need for back pressure in and na car also, it may be very very small but you need a tiny bit other wise the exhaust valves will burn up.

The same reason i when with abbott heads instead of intense. its not always cfm but has fast that air is moving. (and they are about half the cost)

and on a turbo car the extra area just means its going to take longer to build pressure to spool the turbo.

also i don't know anyone that flow tests heads at 6000 RPM....... sound like they are throwing you numbers

I find it funny on there site in bold you should not run stage 3 NA and yet they are telling you to do this. going back to velocity and not raw CFM i find it funny they tell people not to run stage 3 heads NA

I did it for 5000 miles and with 8.5:1 compression seemed fine to me.

I just hope you are researching your other options and not taking one vendors word for it just because they can run 8's

someone has to pay for those 8 second car you know.


when my abbot head cracked after a day of racing guess what ? abbot made me a new head for free, the crack was in the intake port no way I did that. intense will tell you to buy a new head

later after a hard day of racing the valves seized in the head, weather or not i got the head to hot or the spacing was wrong we don't know but abbot fixed it and the bent valve for free.

I'm sure the same could be said about 60 degree inc also.

intense will not care if you are fast or slow, Abbot text me to find out how it was running after every track day, and some times during the race.

i have been threw all of this 3 times now, I'm trying to save you some money and get the best performance out of your car. If you don't want to lessen to me because I post on FTV6 the you are an immature idiot. It also sounds like you have something against FTV6/pat/FFF maybe you got ban?. they don't put up with much **** over there and then you are gone.

I do realize the crowd at FTV6 sometimes snap at noob questions but for the most part that has been handled a few mods have stepped down. left. or been fired.

but years ago this site had the same problem when i was a noob.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

This is why I am a firm believer of having a good friend who can fabricate. I wouldn't want a 1.75" primary for the reason Andrew said. I have more or less been told for a good turbo route, a 1 5/8" primary is pretty good. I don't think anyone makes a primary of that size, hence the reason for custom fabrication.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

not only that the price for 1.75 vs 1.5 would have made them way to high for the V6 community to by

[ssms5411]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

That's the thing the 1.75 may have more area but they no not have the velocity to scavenge the bang room as effectively.

They never tried the 1.75, v8's can fit 2.0 for them so i'm sure a v6 bay can easily fit 1.75 :rolleyes:

1.75 moves the power curve up in the RPM band and you'd have to spin it higher to make effective use of it.

And they where not made in china. selling them at $600 pat is loosing like $300 per set



there is some need for back pressure in and na car also, it may be very very small but you need a tiny bit other wise the exhaust valves will burn up.

The same reason i when with abbott heads instead of intense. its not always cfm but has fast that air is moving. (and they are about half the cost)

and on a turbo car the extra area just means its going to take longer to build pressure to spool the turbo.

also i don't know anyone that flow tests heads at 6000 RPM....... sound like they are throwing you numbers

I find it funny on there site in bold you should not run stage 3 NA and yet they are telling you to do this. going back to velocity and not raw CFM i find it funny they tell people not to run stage 3 heads NA

I did it for 5000 miles and with 8.5:1 compression seemed fine to me.

I just hope you are researching your other options and not taking one vendors word for it just because they can run 8's

someone has to pay for those 8 second car you know.


when my abbot head cracked after a day of racing guess what ? abbot made me a new head for free, the crack was in the intake port no way I did that. intense will tell you to buy a new head

later after a hard day of racing the valves seized in the head, weather or not i got the head to hot or the spacing was wrong we don't know but abbot fixed it and the bent valve for free.

I'm sure the same could be said about 60 degree inc also.

intense will not care if you are fast or slow, Abbot text me to find out how it was running after every track day, and some times during the race.

i have been threw all of this 3 times now, I'm trying to save you some money and get the best performance out of your car. If you don't want to lessen to me because I post on FTV6 the you are an immature idiot. It also sounds like you have something against FTV6/pat/FFF maybe you got ban?. they don't put up with much **** over there and then you are gone.

I do realize the crowd at FTV6 sometimes snap at noob questions but for the most part that has been handled a few mods have stepped down. left. or been fired.

but years ago this site had the same problem when i was a noob.

Show me where on there site it says stage 3 heads can't be used for N/A?? , its the stage 4 heads.:twak:
Here we joke and give out advice, some take it some don't , who cares...
For the china bit it was a joke but I guess being on FTV6 theirs no joking, just people in their own little groups. Then if they don't like something you say they go after you trying to piss people off so they can ban people so their little group can go on. I have seen how they gang up on a person and say whatever they want and don't get banned but if the person their after says something they get banned, having a mod change what one has posted to make themselves look better is real mature, then the owner sends a message your banned for being a @ss. Thats really mature. I still log in over there and read some of their posts , their still doing the same thing, thats why they always come back to this site. A new person can't ask a question or post a opinion over there without being singled out and messed with until their banned. Your statement calling me a immature idiot just proves that I was being polite not name calling, so your statement alone makes you a immature idiot. I have ask you questions before and so what if I don't take you advice maybe a CO. that does build 8 sec. cars knows more than you. You were a noob back in the day and I remember you got pissed off at everyone and said you weren't going to post on here anymore like a immature kid.:cry:



The more I read up on exhuast gases and the 3.8 , the more I see that you want all the burnt gases out of the chamber before the intake valve opens becuase you 'll trap all that hot burnt gases back in the combustion chamber making it hotter , thats when you start burning up intake valves in heads , esp. with a turbo system thats why the GTP's run 1.75" primaries and they seem to be doing very well The 1.90 and 1.57's should do good with a .63 A/R its going to spool quick enough for me to get me 12 PSI and not worry about breaking a valve in this AZ heat. With valves that big I'll need 1.75" primaries to get the burnt exhuast gas out.

Really if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you or not taking your advice why even post on here and stay on FTV6, we really don't have many people argueing on here , thats why in my first post I said what I said my opinion , then of course someone wants to stir the pot. Abbott really is not a great Co. , how many blown engines and no refunds on their work, just blow the people off or try to find a way to blame it on the owner of the vehicle= BAD BUSINESS. Also they have had trouble with their heads, and if they won't be responsible for their product why would anyone want to buy from them. I would rather run stock heads. I understand your probably friends with ABootts, LINX and Tiago becuase they probably gave you good deals on heads and turbo stuff, so why not promote their products I would. I have had good luck with Intense and ZZP, but ZZP doesn't have the Manely Valves or the right heads I wanted and Intense did, and I got a great deal thats less than what I would of paid at Abootts Racing.:)

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

Show me where on there site it says stage 3 heads can't be used for N/A?? , its the stage 4 heads.

I haven't been on the site in while, they removed it from the Stage III still the 4 would do just fine. there not really any difference in them other then springs not really sure how that affect an na motor :poke: it wouldn't, well assuming you need that much cam to for those springs (like lances car)... but the flow is the same.

in fact it even says this on there site: "These are the same great Stage 3 heads that we carry with our CompCams Double Spring/Retainer Kit installed. This stronger spring setup allows a more aggressive cam to be used. "

seems kinda odd don't it?

Here we joke and give out advice, some take it some don't , who cares...
For the china bit it was a joke but I guess being on FTV6 theirs no joking, just people in their own little groups. Then if they don't like something you say they go after you trying to piss people off so they can ban people so their little group can go on. I have seen how they gang up on a person and say whatever they want and don't get banned but if the person their after says something they get banned, having a mod change what one has posted to make themselves look better is real mature, then the owner sends a message your banned for being a @ss. Thats really mature. I still log in over there and read some of their posts , their still doing the same thing, thats why they always come back to this site.

That has happened yes only because that person deserved it or it some posers from here making a name to just cause trouble, I modded on both sites for a while and guess what? yeah the IP addresses matched.

in many other cases it was people from v8 boards

funny look at the how this board treated the guy that said he was going to spend $50000 on a motor and his friend was paying for it, we get the same **** on that board. and do the same to them, they just don't listen then try and cause stuff. so we ban them

ps we joke too :omg:

A new person can't ask a question or post a opinion over there without being singled out and messed with until their banned.

not true people do all the time, if they try and feed BS they do not usually have a nice time, same as here.

Your statement calling me a immature idiot just proves that I was being polite not name calling, so your statement alone makes you a immature idiot. I have ask you questions before and so what if I don't take you advice maybe a CO. that does build 8 sec. cars knows more than you.

i don't care if they know more then me or not, I'm just telling you they are out for your cash and don't care. wasn't you around when Intense tunes where killing peoples motors and the rocker arms where dropping valves or the heads would destroy a 6K motor? Did you miss the many people that where taking them to court?

and my statement? I was just trying to help and trying to stop FALSE information from spreading.

YOU mentioned FTV6 and YOU mentioned the sorry excuse for a china joke. You didn't even put a smiley after it. i bet 99% of people would not read that as a joke

And you are talking to me this way for the simple fact i post on FTV6? (hance my comment) I still post and help people on this board and others, as of late I have been out of racing do to a low paying job so i wasn't posting much on any boards.

stop trying to turn this into a board battle

You were a noob back in the day and I remember you got pissed off at everyone and said you weren't going to post on here anymore like a immature kid.

I don't think i did, i challenge you to find that post, I'm really sure after I posted my motor build I was taken seriously, everyone thought i was just another dreamer talking smack. I took a lot of **** from this board about my dyno numbers and times and the mods and admins here did do anything about it it is the USA they have the right to speak I guess. I didn't like it rather and that's why i no long mod here, the admin would even stand up for his own people. infact alot of the people that gave me **** I'm pretty close too

however I was only 17, so i was a kid.......... :D:D, I probly could have handled things better here and there but oh well, I am who I were.

The more I read up on exhaust gases and the 3.8 , the more I see that you want all the burnt gases out of the chamber before the intake valve opens becuase you 'll trap all that hot burnt gases back in the combustion chamber making it hotter ,

so the you need a HIGH VELOCITY exhaust runner to pull the gases out as fast as possible

eg. you have a garden hose and a straw for example. the garden hose can flow say 50 gallon minute of water (just using numbers as an example)
at the end of the hose the water falls 1 foot from the hose.

but that same amount of volume in the straw would spray out few from the end of the straw.

now the motor
so when the valve opens the intense pressure is released it can move slowly down a water hose or very fast out a straw, (this is way exhaust valves are smaller!)
also the exhaust moving fast out of the camber causes a vacuum to 1 help scavenge the calendar and 2 (pending cam and valve events) effectively suck in the new air charge)

thats when you start burning up intake valves in heads , esp. with a turbo system thats why the GTP's run 1.75" primaries and they seem to be doing very well The 1.90 and 1.57's should do good with a .63 A/R its going to spool quick enough for me to get me 12 PSI and not worry about breaking a valve in this AZ heat. With valves that big I'll need 1.75" primaries to get the burnt exhuast gas out.

I have only seen burnt intake valves in 2 ways, **** ton of over lap in the cam and lean or KR conditions

other head P/P companies match or surpassed what intense claims to flow with there bigger valves, mine are only 1.84.

You realize you will have to add lead additive to your gas to keep from burning up the valve seats right? the 1.90 valve is to large and take away to much valve seat area.

now then; what intense is not telling you is their Turbo cams do not have any over lap, in fact they are negative (they changed the stage III it may have a little i haven't ran it yet)

there for its impossible to burn your intake valve unless your tune is really ****ed or your cam is installed wrong.

even if there is some over lap unless your hot side PSI is 2.5 or more times the intake PSI then really you can get away with more overlap on the cams with a turbo system. From looking at V8 board and them experiments 20* of over lap seems to be the "unofficial" limit

in fact, once my car is running again and i get some data from the hot side i may be swapping cams from my current 224/215

know right now after all these years.

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

stupid limit

Really if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you or not taking your advice why even post on here and stay on FTV6, we really don't have many people arguing on here , that's why in my first post I said what I said my opinion , then of course someone wants to stir the pot.

I post on here to help, for some reason you are getting all pissy about it, you forget its is also my opinion and my years of experience with these motors and vendors.

Really if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you or not taking your advice why even post on here

you know its funny you are attacking me for the same thing, you admitted somewhere in the rambling to not take advice LOL

Abbott really is not a great Co. , how many blown engines and no refunds on their work, just blow the people off or try to find a way to blame it on the owner of the vehicle= BAD BUSINESS. Also they have had trouble with their heads, and if they won't be responsible for their product why would anyone want to buy from them.

my motor was built by abbott and thus far i have not had any troubles, i know pat did and it sucked all around for that.

I would rather run stock heads. I understand your probably friends with ABootts, LINX and Tiago becuase they probably gave you good deals on heads and turbo stuff, so why not promote their products I would. I have had good luck with Intense and ZZP, but ZZP doesn't have the Manely Valves or the right heads I wanted and Intense did, and I got a great deal thats less than what I would of paid at Abootts Racing.

Yes I am friends with people be cause they gave me discounts I'm just that shallow. give me $1000 bucks and I'll be your friend to

lets see i wouldn't consider Abbott a friend, we never talked before he started doing heads and don't talk much right now. we alone talked about my motor and heads we where doing and that was it. we talked about track time because he had a lot invest into my heads including manely valves that he had not ran before.

I paid what everyone else would pay for my heads plus the manely valves and the motor it was $5500 for my motor and i set him all the parts including the cam and most everything. all he had to do was put it together p/p my heads/intakes. he did send me new bearing when the leaking intake port on the head caused damage to one of them like i explained before.

as far as pat and tiago i was friends with them, i did buy the kits from them but most where used already I paid full price for the under K kit that first was made. i bought pats old kit when he did the FFH the first time and sold the other one on ebay.

however we where not friends until I ran from a hurricane and pat let me stay at his place.

even after that I paid full price for my forward facing headers and cold side pipes $2500. I then had them coated on my own.

If you really must know my business :rolleyes:


I for one don't care if anyone takes my advice or not, I report my advice comes on real world experience with my car, and those around me that i trust or have seen succeed and fail. could i make it an 8 second car if i wanted to ? yup, will I ? nope well maybe if i find the money and can have another fast car for the weekends lol

I was in over $25,000 trying to get this car to run 10's I think I could do it for About $10,000 knowing what i

the other things is if your going turbo why do you even give 1 **** about the long tubes? it really makes it look like you a just pissed at curtain sites or people and it really makes you look like a fool.

[ssms5411]

Re: short tube headers vs. long tube headers?

Letzride is running their heads right now with no problems reg. gas, my VS cam is 206/216 115LS , I wouldn't run a turbo cam even if I got it for free, I read about cams along time ago thats why I chose a slighly larger stock cam basicly becuase of people dynoing/ track times with Superchargers and Turbos over the years with stock cams. Look at Teful Hunden stock cam 455 WRHP at 5200 ft. if he was at or close to sea level he would def be over 500 WRHP. My build is basicly going off his except for using oval tubing smaller watercooled GTR turbo. But I have to account for extreme heat , Intense isn't the only one I'm talkng to, also Garrett and 2 performance shops here in AZ who build turbo cars to withstand the AZ heat so you can DD it if needed I'm just looking for 10-12 PSI and 350-400 WRHP. I read up on builds with different cams and heads . I know about companies and their little secrets and big ones. I'm on club. gp, 3800 PRO, and all the other 3.8 forums even fullthrottle but I'm banned imagne that hmmm and still on the site I have different sceen names for every site, banned at FTV6 over saying Diamond pistons are nice pistons and work great 3-4 people runnning them in the 11's. I didn't start this crap I gave my opinon on the long tubes, hell they could be made in china or overseas for all we know, would it matter , no it wouldn't. He has his factory 5 build going on. That is all , I done wasting my time.