MAP tuning

[LETZRIDE]

Re: MAP tuning

I dont suppose you would be able to splice to Mafs together and run them off the same table then? I would think it would be a nightmare to calibrate since you could never flow exactly the same amount of air into both Tbs...

The other option someone suggested was something like this...


The problem is, is the pipe going to each TB is the same size as the single pipe coming from the filter...to me I can't see how that would flow any better then a single TB...

[97rs4life]

Re: MAP tuning

hmm, wonder how the car would react to plumbing two separate tbs with one maf on one tb, then multiplying the maf table by 2 since you are getting twice as much as what it is seeing on the one?

I never really looked into this type of thing so I am just thinking out loud, ignore me if I am way off, lol.

Have you tried talking to the guys running the dual tb holden intakes on how they set it up? I wonder if they all ditch the MAF then or if some tune w/ it

[LETZRIDE]

Re: MAP tuning

hmm, wonder how the car would react to plumbing two separate tbs with one maf on one tb, then multiplying the maf table by 2 since you are getting twice as much as what it is seeing on the one?

I never really looked into this type of thing so I am just thinking out loud, ignore me if I am way off, lol.

Have you tried talking to the guys running the dual tb holden intakes on how they set it up? I wonder if they all ditch the MAF then or if some tune w/ it

Haha, that actually makes sense...the only thing is you would still always have 1 TB taking in more air then the other right? and 2) how would you make changes when tuning...when your scans say you are 2% off, and you copy and paste using the percent function...would you need to multiply that by 2...or if u already did it the first time would u be ok?
and even so...if you multiply by 2, your readings will be wack right? cause your MAF will be saying its wayyy too rich because it is reading a much lower number (only the one TB)...or am I wrong?

I should make a post on FTV6 to see if I can talk to some of the holden guys...know anywhere else I may be able to talk to a few?

[97rs4life]

Re: MAP tuning

well with a wideband you can see if it is to lean or rich and adjust from there. So only the first initial base line would be doubled then from there tweak to dial it in. So if you are still 2% off you would just make that adjustment to the table. Scan and see if it is correct and go from there.

Sure the maf table is going to be way richer than what one tb would call for but that is fine because you are using two tbs. If your o2s are reading correctly then the fueling is not going to be adjusted by the computer. It would have no idea that you are only reading one tb as the computer is happy that your a/f is within spec

Here is a pic of a dual tb setup and how they routed it from the air box.

[97rs4life]

Re: MAP tuning

reading up on the MACE twin tb manifold their customer support had this to say about the air intake setup: "Even if you ran a single MAF with this setup it will still work all you need to do is run a balance pipe between the MAF and the twin pipes".

[LETZRIDE]

Re: MAP tuning

ok, so what is a balance pipe?...was a bit hard to see what was what in that pic, but it more or less looks like the one I pasted above right? basically a Y pipe feeding both throttle bodies, and 1 pipe to the intake?

[97rs4life]

Re: MAP tuning

yea that pic was the same type of setup as what you posted. A ypipe split to two.

A balance pipe would be a pipe between the two, just unsure where you would put it. Just relaying some info I uncovered when I was digging through twin tb stuff

[LETZRIDE]

Re: MAP tuning

you wouldnt happen to have a picture of one that you may of come across?

[97rs4life]

Re: MAP tuning

not the balance pipe idea, no. the pics I have seen either are y pipe intakes or dual tbs with no intake hooked up

[LETZRIDE]

Re: MAP tuning

ok...a farfetched question, but its a thought...How about if I went with something like 6 throttle bodies...like look here



That is what the Lower intake manifold looks like...you could put 6 throttle bodies in a straight line across the top of the manifold...then have a tube come from each throttle body out to a larger tube (same as the Y pipe idea, only there will be 6 tubes Y'ing in, like a header)...the large tube is a single tube that goes in the stock location of a 96-97 cold air intake with a filter on the end of it. An aftermarket Maf sensor can be put on the collecting tube right before it splits to 6...that should make tuning easier right?

Discuss...

[97rs4life]

Re: MAP tuning

if you want to chop your cowl aparts and put on an aftermarket hood that is raised then sure. Otherwise your idea will not work. The room under the cowl is so minimal that you won't be able to do a tb and then the elbow off each as well and clear the cowl and hood.

Check the pictures I attached, you can see how close the space is with just the upper intake on and this is AFTER the kmember spacers and tubular kmember with a drop built into it to give me more room for the holden. I wouldn't want to drop the kmember down any further than I have it already either

[LETZRIDE]

Re: MAP tuning

That looks like plenty of room...if I was thinking 6 tb's then there would be no upper intake manifold...I was thinking just have a piece that is like a 90 degree elbow that would come up off of the lower intake manifold...the 90 degree elbow piece would literally just serve as a place to bolt each of the 6 tbs. The room I am not really concerned with, because this would sit much lower then putting an upper intake there...I mean that 90 degree elbow would thoeretically be the plenium, but it would be so small...literally just big enough to make a 90 degree bend and tall enough to make the TB bolt flush...if you dont get what Im saying, I'll see if I can draw a pic and scan it on here...
I dont even need collector tubes like I originally stated...I could throw 6 individual filters on the velocity stacks...put the maf sensor in 1 of em, multiply that maf table by 6 to get it to work...by not having that collector tube, each cylinder should fill up the same, and by the same I mean that one cylider should not be getting more air then the other one...atleast not as far as I can think anyways...

my only other concern was, I know on our stock UIM we have coolant that travels through there...looking at the holden one, I am not sure if this is the same case...do you still have coolant or any kind of fluid running between the UIM and LIM...if not, I honestly think I can get this to work...and from what I've been reading, this is the single most effective way to get the most power out of a NA car...call me crazy, but its something new on these cars, proven on other cars...if I can get this to work, I think I might just be doing it...

[97rs4life]

Re: MAP tuning

no fluid goes through the uim. Just the egr hole. And there is definitely not enough room for 6 tbs and an elbow under the cowl. Instead go two tbs, and have each supply three runners. mount the tb's in the front and have 90* elbows to each runner. There would be room for that because you are not stacking elbows on top of tb's.

I still think just a sheetmetal box would be ideal with two tb's for what you are after.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: MAP tuning

well, I am just waiting for the heads to come in, and I will be taking some measurements...we'll see what I can come up with...as of right now I've been toying with alot of ideas and stuff Ive found off the net.

Heres some of the stuff Ive been thinking about.

This is on a LSx car...



This fits under the hood, and would be similar to what I am looking at doing, except mine would run off of only 1 side.



That is what it looks like with air box off...see how its literally just a very tiny plenum piece that sits on top of the LIM and allows for the TBs to be mated to it...this would sit much lower IMO then what any UIM would...so I can't see any clearance issues...but again I have to do measurements. When the heads come in, I will be meeting with my buddy, and we'll be taking a serious look at everything.

These are some pictures from a Neon running ITB's (yes a neon, and looks like crappy astetic work, but its mainly to get my point across)


With the cover off


With the cover on. You get my point...look at the above picture...turn it sideways so that the tbs are facing the right side of the car (drivers side)...put a cover on, bring it down to the wheel well on the drivers side, where the stock air box would normally sit. Now, take that big collector tube that is feeding each of the 6 TB's, and grab an aftermarket SLP or V8 MAF sensor...stick it in there, and maf tune...

Hell, I could even nab some of the throttle bodies off of a bike...some of those use ITB's...I probably wouldn't want much bigger then a 40mm TB anyways...

Actually, according to what I am reading...its probably good that there is no way for us to MAP tune...because apparently MAP tuning these things is next to impossible...since the vacuum is very irratic. Now, I know our cars have MAP sensors...so I am not sure if erractic vacuum would be a problem for that? and I am not sure if our brakes use the vacuum generated in the manifold...but I have heard of guys tapping the brakes into just 1 TB, since that should create enough vacuum pressure to stop...since the most pressure build up is when you let off the throttle.

another interesting tidbit I found on Ls1tech, is the harod ITB system they have over there, makes 65rwhp MORE then the FAST intake they have...yes that is on a v8, and No I know you can't compare those results to our cars...but those are some damn impressive numbers...hell, people don't even get those kind of gains from heads...
So figure that the FAST intakes probably make a good 20rwhp gain over stock...your looking at an 80+rwhp gain...for them atleast...I would like to think that there should be a considerable gain for us as well....

[97rs4life]

Re: MAP tuning

ok, I see what you mean now, I was thinking you were gonna lay a tb smack dab on top of each runner hole and then have a 90* elbow off each of those. Something like in those pics would be possible then if you route them to the sides.

That is interesting about the gains on the ls1s. Nice