Msd ignition kits

[LETZRIDE]

Is there an msd ignition kit out there that would allow us to maybe bypass the pcm, and control spark through the box instead?

Im not quite sure what I am looking for, but I do know that what I am trying to do is find a way to control spark per individual cylinder...

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Msd ignition kits

F.A.S.T.

Its really the only way you can control ignition along with the timing on these cars per individual cylinder. If you bypass the PCM, you have no signal to control the ignition timing. There are SO many variables and so much hardware controlling the timing of the spark, that the MSD alone is not going to be able to do it, thats just not what it was made for. Bypassing the PCM would require the signaling from the cam, crank sensors, some 5 different leads from the PCM to the ICM, and then figuring out the ICM control signaling from the ICM. An MSD ignition box isn't made for it. You need some kind of spark controller, an advanced distributorless controller made for these cars. A F.A.S.T system is the only option you really have thats viable, premade, and can do what you want with it.

[97rs4life]

Re: Msd ignition kits

yea go F.A.S.T. if you are gonna get into that kind of stuff.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Msd ignition kits

Wes you were telling me about that awhile ago...but those are priced at a couple grand I believe, little out of the price range...

So I don't understand...all these people get these msd 6AL ignition boxes and all this stuff...what exactly does that stuff do?

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Msd ignition kits

A 6AL kit is for an engine with a distributor. Because distributors are controlled mechanically, timing is set with them as such, by rotating the assembly of the distributor to either advance or retard the timing. The spark timing on an engine with a distributor is controlled SPECIFICALLY by the distributor and coil ALONE. What a 6AL would do is control the timing the way you would with the distributor, but with the box controller instead of the rotating of the distributor assembly itself, and have other controls like a rev controller.

With a coil pack (distributorless) system, its all computer controlled. Hence you would need a computer to replace the PCM and ICM you're taking out of the equation with a DIS.

A F.A.S.T is the ONLY system that is self contained, that doesn't have to be built, that will work for this car in reference to controlling individual cylinder characteristics. And even then, the F.A.S.T system is NOT plug and play with these cars, it still requires some custom work to be done to adapt it to a GM 3.8l PCM, DIS system, and fuel injected engine. Theres no other options at this point in time.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Msd ignition kits

not even if it could work together with our pcm? maybe not as a single unit but combined?

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Msd ignition kits

I'll be dead honest with ya, I would see no reason to get into individual cylinder characteristics unless this car of yours was pulling 9's or lower with a trailer queen. Its just not THAT necessary. The waste spark coil system on these cars is pretty stout, and unless you're doing something experimental and REALLY pushing the edge with this turbo of yours, I can't see just buying a F.A.S.T. system to control it on a street driven car or a daily driver. Its a little overkill.

I had planned on a F.A.S.T system myself with my project (whenever that gets off the ground), but I have a much sicker plan in mind. I think you would be just fine with HPT for now.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Msd ignition kits

not even if it could work together with our pcm? maybe not as a single unit but combined?

From what I have seen, the 6AL box controls the coil spark between the one lone coil and the distributor.

What you have to understand is that a system with a distributor is MUCH different in DESIGN than a DIS. A system with a distributor, the coil gets power, regenerates the electric current into a HIGH VOLTAGE sparking jolt of electricity. It then passes from the coil, to the distributor, where the contacts are individually jolted one by one by the rotor. In a DIS system like ours, its backwards. The electricity is FIRST selected thru a route electrically by the ICM. Its then forced into one of three coils, where the signal is regenerated into that high voltage current, but from there, its directly connected to the spark plug. The reason why you couldn't use a 6AL box is because you would have to buy 6 6AL boxes to control the individual cylinders. The problem as well would be that if the timing was retarded or advanced by the 6AL boxes, the PCM is going to compensate the timing difference thru the ICM, in turn advancing or retarding the timing even more to compensate for the 6AL that the PCM is not recognizing. Something you must realize is that the PCM and ICM know EXACT timing of the engine, and both compensate for any abnormality (to a really dumb extent). Introducing a foreign entity such as a 6AL box into the system is only going to make the PCM and ICM compensate for the abnormality the 6AL is producing. In theory, this might run the car for about 2 seconds before you have SERIOUS knock issues or even some dieseling.

NOW, if you're talking about using a F.A.S.T system with the stock PCM, I think that can be done. You would still need the stock PCM for transmission control, anything dealing with the instrument cluster, cooling, things like that. Only thing the F.A.S.T would control is Fuel, Air, and Spark (Hence F.A.S.T). If you could figure out how to wire the inputs from the PCM, crank and cam sensors to the system, as well as O2 signals, MAF, IAT, TPS signals to the F.A.S.T. system, then you could essentially control the fuel, spark, A/F from the F.A.S.T, and have the stock PCM control everything else. I think the wiring would be a nightmare, but its something I would LOVE to do in my spare time, even if it wasn't with my car or stuff.

I will say this, I can't think of ANYONE yet that has done such a thing, simply because of the necessity of it all. But the thought has crossed my mind more than once on how to mate both the stock PCM and the F.A.S.T system together and have them work in harmony.

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Msd ignition kits

its definetly overkill...but there are also some units locally going for pretty cheap... I dunno, Im just exploring options...especially because I am having an issue spark tuning right now..

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Msd ignition kits

Reread my last post.....

[LETZRIDE]

Re: Msd ignition kits

From what I have seen, the 6AL box controls the coil spark between the one lone coil and the distributor.

NOW, if you're talking about using a F.A.S.T system with the stock PCM, I think that can be done. You would still need the stock PCM for transmission control, anything dealing with the instrument cluster, cooling, things like that. Only thing the F.A.S.T would control is Fuel, Air, and Spark (Hence F.A.S.T). If you could figure out how to wire the inputs from the PCM, crank and cam sensors to the system, as well as O2 signals, MAF, IAT, TPS signals to the F.A.S.T. system, then you could essentially control the fuel, spark, A/F from the F.A.S.T, and have the stock PCM control everything else. I think the wiring would be a nightmare, but its something I would LOVE to do in my spare time, even if it wasn't with my car or stuff.

I will say this, I can't think of ANYONE yet that has done such a thing, simply because of the necessity of it all. But the thought has crossed my mind more than once on how to mate both the stock PCM and the F.A.S.T system together and have them work in harmony.

I wouldnt mind doing the exact same thing, maybe not necessarily with f.a.s.t, but something that would give me that type of control.

I just can't get over the fact that hp tuners is purely MAF based... I'm not running a maf so I can't see my spark knock table (the one that shows you how much knock you are getting at each rpm/load) So my timing has been a crap shoot. I dont understand how the v8 guys can somehow have access to these tables even when running in SD...it's like pulling teeth over on the hp tuner boards to even get an answer...hell I can't even find/figure out a calculation to possibly make my own PID to make the table work in conjunction with the MAP instead.

I mean I see the spikes on the graph as far as knock goes, but thats it...I know there is a way I should be able to see how much knock I get at each rpm/load as well...even without a maf because I can see it in the graph now

it's a giant mess, that I wouldnt mind flipping the functions over to another unit that could maybe get the job done with less headaches...

edit: I did reread your post as well... this makes me think back to swapping in that 4.3l pcm...if the 6al is meant for a distributer type system or eliminating one? Would you not be able to run the 4.3L pcm in conjunction with the 6AL msd box and control all your timing that way?

Cause that was the biggest issue in switching to a 4.3L pcm...

[A fireman]

Re: Msd ignition kits

I'm doing some research into the new release of megasquirt for you MS3 can handle up to 8 coils so I'm asking the programers if you can alter each plug's timing. if so your looking at $455 when the next release of boards comes out. the only drawback is these are un-assembled so you need to be good with a soldering iron or have someone (like me) willing to put it together for you.

[97rs4life]

Re: Msd ignition kits

talk to hptuners directly and see if they will make you a SD program. They do make one off applications for people.

[A fireman]

Re: Msd ignition kits

Yes MS3 has the ability to trim both spark and fuel on an individual cylinder basis IF you are running sequential.

So if you are willing to give MS3 a try ( and it can run off only MAP) you can get the individual tuning.

[Mogobs30th]

Re: Msd ignition kits

So if you are willing to give MS3 a try ( and it can run off only MAP) you can get the individual tuning.

I respect a Megasquirt system, but its a very time consuming process to build one, tune with it, and make sure everything is right. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they've had some sort of training with electronics, soldering, things like that.

I would also like to build a MS3 system, but I haven't had a good look at any megasquirt system in years. MS3 is a little new to me. Do you have any links on what is what nowadays with those systems?