DRAG SETUPxxxxhandling setup now

[mwh27]

I got the Stranno(Addaco) 35/22mm Hollow bar and it is very "livley" like bob said. However I would like to think this is due to my stock springs and shocks with 55k on them.

In heavy cornering, you can tell the springs just arent up to it, and when exiting the corner it "snaps" back becuase the only thing keeping you level in the corner was the front sway.

I plan on getting some Stranno revalved blistens with springs in the spring next year.

Check out http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/ and
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/sho...on+version+2.0
for some GREAT information in suspension setups.

[ September 13, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: mwh27 ]

[V6Bob]

"In heavy cornering, you can tell the springs just arent up to it, and when exiting the corner it "snaps" back becuase the only thing keeping you level in the corner was the front sway."

Another possibility is that you've just come back from the ragged edge of an oversteer slide. On dry pavement. See below.

"I got the Stranno(Addaco) 35/22mm Hollow bar and it is very "livley" like bob said. However I would like to think this is due to my stock springs and shocks with 55k on them."

You're positioned well to do an interesting experiment, takes maybe 30 minutes. Swap the stock rear bar back in.

A. Does the "snaps back" feeling disappear? If so, it's the large 22mm rear bar that's causing it, and I was right about the ragged edge of oversteer.

B. Outside of feeling more stable (yes, a bit "truck" like), does the car really handle worse? I'm betting not. FWIW, a NASCAR stocker set up properly for Sears Point feels quite truck like. They need excess rear grip to accelerate off the slow corners. You need excess rear grip for rain and emergency swerves.

"Check out http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/ and
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/sho...on+version+2.0
for some GREAT information in suspension setups."

Interesting stuff. A few comments. The guy was going from 600 front springs a a 21 rear to 750 fronts and a 23.5 rear. He had a V8 with a more forward weight distribution, and was setting the car up for high speed track use. Those springs and that situation are the only things that justify a big rear bar. Note that he had too much oversteer with the 23.5 rear (on 750 front springs and a 36.5 front bar with a V8 on a dry high speed track!) and lowered the Panhard to fix it. He was going to swap in the smaller rear when it rained. He said he would need a smaller rear if he was autocrossing and needed to accelerate off slow corners.

On V6 springs, on a V6, that is street driven, these big rear bars are definitely not the hot setup. In fact, they are flat wrong, and dangerous to boot. I believe Vracer would autocross faster with a smaller rear bar and earlier acceleration in the corner. He disagrees.

[ September 13, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: V6Bob ]

[mwh27]

Originally posted by V6Bob:

B. Outside of feeling more stable (yes, a bit "truck" like), does the car really handle worse? I'm betting not.

I'm confused, are you saying that my car should handle worse now?

On another note, can the "truck" like feeling be attributed to the front sway bar being stiffer.

Let me explain, when going over bumps or general road rockyness, the sway wants to stay level; kind of helping the springs and shocks? I say this because I've ran over alot of raised drainage mains(IDK why they are raised) and thats where I feel the most "truck" likeness. It feels like my friends GMC.

PS: I've also heard that hollow bars act like a solid bar minus 1mm. So a 22mm hollow would be like a 21mm solid. Any truth to this? I know physics can tell me, but I havent gotten that far yet.

[V6Bob]

"I'm confused, are you saying that my car should handle worse now?"

Absolutely. The 22 rear is a _very_ bad idea, in my opinion. As I said before, it may make the car feel more "lively" but that's not good when you really need handling. What I'm saying is try putting the stock bar back, I'm betting the car won't handle worse with the stock rear bar.

"On another note, can the "truck" like feeling be attributed to the front sway bar being stiffer."

No. A bigger front bar makes steering response quicker.

"Let me explain, when going over bumps or general road rockyness, the sway wants to stay level; kind of helping the springs and shocks? I say this because I've ran over alot of raised drainage mains(IDK why they are raised) and thats where I feel the most "truck" likeness. It feels like my friends GMC."

Sorry, I'm just not understanding that.

A final note. If your shocks are bad, they need to be fixed pronto. It's dangerous to drive with worn out shocks.

[mwh27]

Just think about if one wheel went over a bump, wouldn't the sway bar try to bring the high wheel down? or the low wheel up.

Even though the body isn't toruqed at all the wheels are fighting each other along the sway bar..... maybe...?

I was just looking for an explanintion for the "truck" like feeling.

[V6Bob]

Sorry, I've been too cryptic.

What I'm saying is that the stock rear bar should make your car more stable (although bad shocks will mask this to some degree). Some people think stable is bad and refer to stability as "truck-like" handling. They actually like a car that feels unstable, makes them think they're going fast. I (and all racers) think stability is a good thing. 'The ignorant or inexperienced racer feels like a hero when he slides the rear around a corner. In some ways it's a pity it's not the fast way around the track.' The late, great Carroll Smith.

"Just think about if one wheel went over a bump, wouldn't the sway bar try to bring the high wheel down? or the low wheel up."

You're exactly right. On one wheel bumps the front sway acts like a spring. This would come across as ride harshness, though.

By the way, a last thought. The guy in the thread you quote clearly knows a few things, knows a lot more than me. He thought a 23.5 mm rear was too much oversteer on 750 lb front springs, on a V8 track car on a dry track. Your car/situation demands a _much_ smaller rear bar. The 22 is _wrong_.

[mwh27]

Fair, sorry to hijack this thread =(

But the stock is a 19mm solid bar..correct?

And the hollow 22mm is too big, I mean, there is only 3mm between the two. So you think there is no need for aftermarket rear sway bars on v6 fbodies?

[slow6]

28mm/15mm stock v6 depending on year model

[V6Bob]

"there is only 3mm between the two"

Actually V6 bars are either 15 or 17, depending on year. GM uses a smaller rear bar on V6s, and it's not because they don't want it to handle as good as a V8. It's because of the weight distribution and the springs, particularly the soft front springs on the V6.

Can you calculate the difference in stiffness between a 19 and a 22, which are "only 3mm" different?

I'm honestly not trying to be a smart alec here. For one thing, you'll be surprised, for another, it's good to know how to do the calculation if you're gonna mess with bars. Bars are about the trickiest mod there is, you can easily make your car handle worse.

"So you think there is no need for aftermarket rear sway bars on v6 fbodies?"

I don't know. It depends on too many things. Bars are _very_ complicated. I do know that, on stock V6 springs, a 21 rear is too big.

[ September 13, 2005, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: V6Bob ]

[RGB]

Originally posted by V6Bob:

"I got the Stranno(Addaco) 35/22mm Hollow bar and it is very "livley" like bob said. However I would like to think this is due to my stock springs and shocks with 55k on them."

You're positioned well to do an interesting experiment, takes maybe 30 minutes. Swap the stock rear bar back in.

A. Does the "snaps back" feeling disappear? If so, it's the large 22mm rear bar that's causing it, and I was right about the ragged edge of oversteer.

B. Outside of feeling more stable (yes, a bit "truck" like), does the car really handle worse? I'm betting not. FWIW, a NASCAR stocker set up properly for Sears Point feels quite truck like. They need excess rear grip to accelerate off the slow corners. You need excess rear grip for rain and emergency swerves.

...

On V6 springs, on a V6, that is street driven, these big rear bars are definitely not the hot setup. In fact, they are flat wrong, and dangerous to boot. I believe Vracer would autocross faster with a smaller rear bar and earlier acceleration in the corner. He disagrees.

I'm very happy (and fast) autocrossing with the Stranno(Addaco) 35/22mm Hollow bars. Great tires, limited slip differential, and the low power of the V6 (vs the V8) limits wheel spin off the corners with the 22 mm hollow rear bar yet the car is very balanced in the center of the turn. And yes swaping out the rear bar (15, 17, 19, 21, or 22 hollow) is an easy way to tune the car to your use. The 21 solid/22 hollow rear bar is certainly not the first change to make but it does make sense in some setups.

[slow6]

tires, shocks, springs, then bars is the order to upgrade

RGB, what kinda springs & shocks do u have?

i may want to buy your bar setup from same manufacturer!

oh, if you want more power (wheel spin) out of the corner get low gears (4.10s) and maybe a higher torque convertor.

[RGB]

I have a '97 V6 with V8 take-off shocks.
Rear springs are V8 take-offs with the spring isolater removed and heater hose put on the top coil.

I'm moving to 98+ V6 springs all the way around with koni single adjustables in the front (using the lower perch on the koni in front and the same isolater removal in the back).

BTW, so far so good (low speed or high speed autocross or wet or lapping day) for Toyo RA1 on a 16x8.5 inch wheels.

[ September 15, 2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: RGB ]

[V6Bob]

RGB - Same message as for Vracer. I believe you'd be faster with a smaller rear bar and getting on the gas sooner and harder in the corners.

Read the corner carvers thread mwh27 cited above. A guy who sounds like he knows a heck of a lot more than any of us found a 23.5mm rear too big, with _750_ front springs, on a high speed track car. There's a message there, and it's one I've seen before from guys who sound like they know what they're talking about.

[RGB]

It's a very good thread. Worth reading carefully and more than once. He gives alot of information.

I'm hard on the gas well before the apex of the turn. I think this is possible because of the large front bar, the slightly lower rear ride hight, sticky tires, limited slip diff., and limited horsepower.

[mwh27]

be sure to check out the rear adjustable custom sway bar on the second page. Looks very nice.

Heh he talks about on the stiffest setting the bar is around 950 #/".

I can't even imagne that.
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/sho...on+version+2.0