1LE Front Sway Bar. Stiff enough?

[Cale]

Sam Strano reports the 1LE not being stiff enough to his likings. He recommends a solid bar.

BMR advertises their solid bar as being 40% more rigid. Able to retain it's "memory" better <- I assume that statement is in regards to the bar actually warping.

My question is - on my daily driver, no serious Auto-X or Road Racing (although I do live within some very curvy backroads that I often take with enthusiasm), is the rigidty of another bar - say Addco, or BMR, really needed? I am speaking of the front bar in particular here.

I appreciate insight.

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Cale ]</p>

[DominusEtDeusNatus]

I don't see how solid is diff then hollow. He recommends a 35mm, but with race tires. With a bigger bar you won't need as much spring rate. Of course the shocks are the first thing you should do. I'll do the 35mm once I get enough money to get better tires. I doubt there is a difference between Addco and 1LE. I don't buy that and noone has proven it yet. Once someone measures the stiffness with some instrument I'll believe it. Unfortunately we have to go by sizes, which are kinda related to stiffness, but whether it's linear or not, I don't know. Try to bend a steel pipe. It won't move at all. So what's the point of putting stuff inside? It will not warp.

[Cale]

Dom -
Thanks for your insight.
Sam also recommended doing the shocks first. May I ask why? And is it that integral considering I only have 2000 miles on the stock shocks? I could see maybe at 30,000 it being more justifiable - but I mean - I gots me fer(4) brand new shocks already!

I guess I left out that he not only recommended the solid bar, but the 32mm bar for my application(I gave him the details of what my car is used for). So, I guess - apples to apples (32mm to 32mm) he liked the Addco better than the 1LE (then again, he doesn't sell the 1LE either ;-P )

Any other comments?

[V6Bob]

"Unfortunately we have to go by sizes, which are kinda related to stiffness, but whether it's linear or not, I don't know."

Since you asked :D

It's not linear, it's a fourth power deal. To compare stiffness, compare the fourth power. The stiffness of a bar goes as:

OD^4-ID^4. For a solid bar, just use zero for ID. Here's some calculations I found:

Size Wall (% stiff incr)==============================
1.25 solid 114
1.31 .188 92
1.25 .250 86
1.25 .188 62
1.13 solid 40
1.25 .125 26
1.25 .095 4
1.13 .150 0

1.25 inches is about 32mm. So a 32mm solid bar is about 4 times stiffer than a 32mm hollow bar with a 1/8 wall, about twice as stiff as a 32mm with a 3/16 wall, and a little less than 50% stiffer than a 32mm with a 1/4 wall. From BMRs statement (40% stiffer), I'd guess a 1LE has a 1/4 wall.

Since weight only goes up as the second power of the diameter, a hollow bar will always give you more stiffness per weight. So serious race cars always use hollow bars, they just make them big enough.

Of course this doesn't answer your question - what is stiff enough? It's just how the stiffness thing works.

[CamaroMan]

I think the setup I have right now friggin ROCKS! My car corners like it's on rails in corners and it turns NOW when you move the steering wheel. All in all, it just feels like it's more connected to the road, and it still rides the same in terms of bumps. Write me with any questions...

jasony@houston.rr.com

[DominusEtDeusNatus]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cale:
Dom -
Thanks for your insight.
Sam also recommended doing the shocks first. May I ask why? And is it that integral considering I only have 2000 miles on the stock shocks? I could see maybe at 30,000 it being more justifiable - but I mean - I gots me fer(4) brand new shocks already!

I guess I left out that he not only recommended the solid bar, but the 32mm bar for my application(I gave him the details of what my car is used for). So, I guess - apples to apples (32mm to 32mm) he liked the Addco better than the 1LE (then again, he doesn't sell the 1LE either ;-P )

Any other comments?<hr></blockquote>

Did you get stock V6 Decarbons? I guess if you just got them, then don't waste your money on another set right now. Hopefully you got the Z28 take-offs, which are under $50 for all 4 from SLP. They are a little more aggressively valved then V6 ones. Trust me, once you put better shocks on your car, you'll only wish you'd done it sooner.

You'll need revalved Bilsteins of Konis to handle heavier springs if you ever plan on getting a set. My car was so bouncy so to say. It felt like I had very little control. Very soft feeling. Felt like Jello. I finally got 1LE springs, 1LE shocks(94s, much more aggressively valved then later 1LE ones or current Z28 ones), 1LE sway bars, 1LE endlinks (front), Prothane endlinks (rear) and Prothane bushings (front/rear). I have only done the rear so far. Hopefully I'll have time to do fronts this weekend. Then I'll be able to comment on the whole setup.

This guy I used to know had a 941LE so I just didn't blindly get that setup. I knew it worked and it was cheaper then aftermarket. I loved the way the car handled. Plus he hooked me up with brand new front shocks for $120. In the future I might do slightly stiffer (400-500) front springs and 35mm front bar. But not before I get some tires meant for autox. Rear as is now feels plenty stiff. I don't want it any stiffer. Going over speed bumps, I finally have tire contact all the way. I guess I did have 90,000 on my old shocks and they are supposed to last 50,000 before replacing. They were horrible.

I didn't want Bilsteins for the following reasons:
1.They are meant for stock springs. Unless you revalve them. So that means they will wear out much quicker on heavier springs. I was planning on heavier springs. Plus the ride would suffer greatly as they wouldn't be able to control the springs.
2.Friends had it and liked 941LEs better. They didn't like Bilstein's at all.
3.The price was great compared to Konis(which is the only other shock I've ever considered. I will not put a "budget" shock on my car.)
4.I rode in 2 cars that had 94 1LEs and was very impressed. So there was no mystery about what I was going to get. With Bilsteins it was a shot in the dark.

Let's say you get a sway bar first. Then you get some springs to match it better. Then you'll need shocks to match the springs. See how it's going kinda backwards. Let's say you don't like the sway bar anymore, then you'll need different springs(let's say you got 500 springs and 32mm bar, it feels too stiff over bumps, but you still want the same cornering, so you get a softer spring, but then you'll need a bigger bar), then revalve the shocks(unless you have DA Konis) or get different ones. It would be much easier to start with shocks and springs and then fine tune it with sway bars. Stiffer springs do help in corners much like bigger sway bars.

You must really match your springs to your shocks. If the shock can't handle the spring, then you're in a world of trouble.

Shocks are spring dampers. Let's say you get Bilsteins with a heavy spring. You have to damp a ton more spring with something that isn't valved for anything that stiff.

The springs will be severly underdamped. You hit a bump and the spring compresses. You have energy stored in the spring now, and it will recoil. If you can't damp the recoil, you end up floating all over the place with a severe lack of control.
It will shock the tires loose. Pretty unsafe if you're going fast.

I hope I didn't confuse you even more. It's hard to talk about sway bars without getting into shocks and springs and tires.

[Cale]

Dom,

Once again, your information was very insightful.

As for my shocks - my camaro is a brand new 2002, I am running the stock shocks.

As for more on shocks - Strano didn't recommend any sort of a lowering/heavier spring - just the Bilstein HDs for my stock springs. I guess he thought that was best for my intentions.... Which I have been thinking of just sticking with stock springs and eventually going with a stiffer shock (I'm a daily driver, no Auto-Xing in my future, however I want to do this right) and just going with 1LE sway bars. Think that combo would work fine?

Will those 94 1LE shocks work well my stock springs? How about those 1LE springs - you have them equipped on your V6 F-Body? What were the specific gains from those springs?

[Fin]

I've got 1LE front/rear sway bars w/1LE endlinks & stock shocks/springs. I really enjoy the way the car handles. I still have the 1LE LCA's & PHR waiting to be installed, so we shall see how the car handles afterwards.

[Cale]

Fin - thanks for your take as well.

I'd really like to know as well what it feels like after you swap them out (being both of our cars are new and I wasnt sure on how much just basically a new bushing would help).

A guy is offering me his front and rear 1LE sways (plus insulators, no end links) w/ 3K miles on them & also brand new-never mounted Hotchkis SFCs for $250 shipped =-)
Needless to say, I'm sending him a money order tomorrow.

[DominusEtDeusNatus]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cale:
Dom,

Once again, your information was very insightful.

As for my shocks - my camaro is a brand new 2002, I am running the stock shocks.

As for more on shocks - Strano didn't recommend any sort of a lowering/heavier spring - just the Bilstein HDs for my stock springs. I guess he thought that was best for my intentions.... Which I have been thinking of just sticking with stock springs and eventually going with a stiffer shock (I'm a daily driver, no Auto-Xing in my future, however I want to do this right) and just going with 1LE sway bars. Think that combo would work fine?

Will those 94 1LE shocks work well my stock springs? How about those 1LE springs - you have them equipped on your V6 F-Body? What were the specific gains from those springs?<hr></blockquote>

Yes, the shocks will work with stock springs. They are just valved to control 30% heavier spring. I have 1LE springs, shocks, sway bars. I did them all at once. First rear. Drove for few weeks, then front. Before I've done the front, I had huge oversteer. It was really fun to roast my tires all the time. Now it's very difficult to oversteer. Car is amazing in the way it handles. After I get my new trans I'll be able to test it real good. I'm also waiting on a upper shock mount. The old one rusted solid onto the old shock. I'm very happy with my suspension right now. It's night and day compared to stock. I also got to get tires, subframes, LCA, PHR, and STB. It's only going to get better. Then I'm going to play around with bigger bar upfront. Maybe stiffer springs up front also. That's like a year away though.

To add. My car stays perfectly flat on hard corners, hard braking, and hard stopping. Couldn't say that before.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Dom ]</p>