Sway bars: 32/21 Setup

[jdub]

I read on this board that the 32 on the front, 21 on the rear sway bar works well with stock springs. Where can I get these sway bars? How hard are they to install?

[V6Bob]

You'll also read on this board that they're very bad (the 21 rear, that is). I've posted it enough times.

Swaybars can screw your handling up, even make your car unsafe. Putting on bars because some stranger on the net thinks they're good is very risky. You need to personally know what you're doing on this one.

[aalugo2000]

i searched a bit before buying mine, seems like 32 and 19 is the proper setup.. if you have 275 tires.

[V6Bob]

No personal offense intended against alan or jdub here (and I hope none is taken), but I see posts like these on bars over and over. "I've heard (from some stranger who may not have a clue) setup X is great."

Can anyone explain why tires make a difference in what swaybars you need? Particularly, why would tires make a difference in what _rear_ bar you need? And there's nothing magic about 275s. A good 255 can beat a bad 275 any day.

There's more funny stuff posted here about swaybars than just about anything else. It's practically urban legend stuff. Some of it is downright dangerous.

What I think happens is this. Someone slaps big bars on their car. In normal driving they make the car feel livelier and roll less. So they post "these bars are great!". The fact is that, on stock springs (springs affect bars a whole lot) bars like 32/21 are far from the hot setup. They're not the fastest at competitive events like autocross. And, on the street, they can bite you bad in tough situations, like driving in rain or making an emergency swerve.

[Vracer111]

Can anyone explain why tires make a difference in what swaybars you need? Particularly, why would tires make a difference in what _rear_ bar you need? And there's nothing magic about 275s. A good 255 can beat a bad 275 any day.

I don't think tires ultimately make a difference in what swaybar setup you actually need, but they do affect how the car handles with the particular swaybar setup you have. 245/50-16 Yokohama ES-100s verses 275/40-17 Nitto NT-555RII is night and day difference in traction and handling with an open differential and big sway bars front and rear. The ES-100s are fine until you push them hard - then they lose traction too easily going in or coming off turns and its very easy to spin the car if you get a little sloppy or get into gravel in the turns. The wider and way stickier NT-555RII's give more stability in the rear along with stick in the front, enabling the car to be much more controllable all around an autocross course (braking, turning-slolams, accelerating). ES-100's are noticeably slower than NT-555RII's, which is to be expected when comparing a nice street tire to a nice streetable "Race compound" tire.

[Dominic]

I haven't had any "dangerous" issues with the 32/21 setup. Yes, it changes the balance of the car. However, I like the change it made and wouldn't want stock bars. If anything, I'd like more front bar stiffness (35mm is my next option) but with the new Bilstein HD shocks it's not uber-necessary.

The best advice I can give you is to simply try the bigger bars, one at a time, until you find something you like. I know that a larger front bar will not hurt you. The biggest controversy is over rear-bar sizing.

[5_spd_pewter_v6]

I also have the 32/21 setup on my car. I have not had any problems with it. when i was doing some looking for the bars i wanted i talked with v6bob and he warned me against them. i got them any way with what he said in mind. i also got 275 tires on new rims. with what v6bob had to say i tried them new setup in a parking lot and did some "emergency" type driving to see what would happen. it does make the car tend toward oversteer more, but i didn't feel it makes the car dangerous. that is my personal opinion and that is the only weight it carries.

[FirebirdGT]

I HAD the 32/21 setup. At the edge with 275/17, dangerous with 245/16. Changed to a 35, which improved but not correct the situation. I also have stock V8 springs. On a 98 with stock V6 springs - NO WAY!!

[Dominic]

Robert, are you running different shocks too? Don't tell me you're still running decrapons. Different shocks make the bars much more streetable.

[V6Bob]

Good tires and shocks will cause the car to stick better, and somewhat mask the fact that these bars are flat wrong for a V6 on stock springs, especially a 98+. They certainly ain't the fastest and they ain't safe, in certain circumstances.

There is simply no good reason to get them for a V6 with stock springs. People who have them can rationalize but the bottom line is that their car would handle better with a smaller rear bar.

[aalugo2000]

i posted the tire size comment because from what i researched the car would tend to oversteer quite noticeably on stock rubber (or crappy 275 rubber for that matter), and that was with a 19mm bar, let alone a 21. so i thought that it was quite relevant.

v6 bob, i believe the point you were trying to make it that you prefer the stock sway bar setup?

[RGB]

2nd,
For starting with a 35 mm hollow front bar and bringing the rear bar up (or not)to match your springs, use, and preference.

[V6Bob]

"v6 bob, i believe the point you were trying to make it that you prefer the stock sway bar setup?"

No. Swaybars are the most difficult suspension mod and I'm not a pro, I can't say what's best. But, as Robert says, on a V6 with stock springs a 21mm rear is _way_ too big. With the soft front springs of a 98+, even moreso. That call is easy, and that's my point.

[Vracer111]

Here are questions I asked and the response I received from Andy Hollis who was one of my instructors at a recently completed Evolution autocross school;

(3:26 AM 4/17/2005) Vracer111: Andy, I have a few questions regarding swaybars for you. Don't know if you can accurately recall from the Phase I/Phase II Evolution school at Gulf Greyhound Park March 31st/April 1st, but would you be able to give me an honest opinion of the handling of my '98 V6 Camaro (the one with "good brakes" and an open differential)? Mainly looking for whether I should keep the current rear sway bar or size it down a notch or two. I'm know that sizing it down a little would give more rear grip at the limit, but at the cost of transitional handling - which I like currently as is in my F-body. And do you feel the swaybar setup makes it too "loose" in the rear or just about right (based on your experience with other F-Bodies, ETC.) Of course handling will change again and will be back to square one once I get the Torsen T2 differential installed...lol
Sorry to bug you with this so long after the fact. If you can help that would be great, but I can understand if you really couldn't give me an accurate opinion on driving a particular car a few times over 2 weeks ago. Thanks. Paul Vincent


(7:39 PM 4/18/2005) Andy Hollis: To be perfectly honest, I'd get the Torsen in there first and then muck with the handling. The car was nicely balanced, but as soon as you got the inside rear unloaded due to weight transfer, the tire would light up. Fixing that would ruin the balance (more front bar), or at least make the car much more twitchy (more front bar and then take toe out of the rear).
HTH,
Andy

For reference, my suspension setup is Hotchkis Sport swaybars (Hollow 36.5mm front/Hollow 25.4mm rear), stock springs, Koni SA dampers, and 275/40-17 Nitto NT-555RII DOT-R tires on 17x9.5 wheels.

[ April 20, 2005, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Vracer111 ]