upgrading JUST sway bars...

[Only4U]

i've asked this several times i think, but never in as straightforward of a manner. i've been confused about this, so if someone would please clarify...

a. can bigger front and rear sway bars be changed without upgrading other stock suspension parts (springs, shocks, etc.)?

b. will upgrading to bigger sway bars make a big difference in ride quality etc. etc.?

[Dewey]

Speaking from my experience.....

a) yes. upgraded to 1LE sways only.

b) yes. much less body roll.

[V6Bob]

You can just upgrade sways, but it's tricky, because sways and springs both affect roll resistance and work together to set the handling (understeer/oversteer) of the car. They're intended to work together as a balanced set and it takes real skill to get the combo right. You might not notice a mismatch until you really need the handling capability of the car and it lets you down.

The 1LE bars are intended to work with 1LE springs (and, there are two different "1LEs" for bars and springs). Most racers (and GM and SLP) think the 32/21 "1LE" combo has too much oversteer even with V8 springs. With V6 springs the oversteer would be substantially more. I'm not an expert, but this combo is definitely mismatched.

I know of only one professionally engineered setup using stock V6 springs. That's SLP's nandling setup, using 98+ V6 springs and 32/19 bars.

There's not a lot of difference in ride quality when you change bars, because a sway bar has no effect if the wheels on both sides hit a bump together.

People like this mod because it has a major effect on handling. That also makes it tricky, because you can screw up the handling, too. Bigger is not always better here.

I hope that's made you less confused :D .

[John_D.]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Only4U:
a. can bigger front and rear sway bars be changed without upgrading other stock suspension parts (springs, shocks, etc.)?

b. will upgrading to bigger sway bars make a big difference in ride quality etc. etc.?<hr></blockquote>

To improve handling, some people prefer springs, some prefer sway bars, some prefer both. Either one is a spring that has to be twisted in order for the car to roll from side to side.

Too much emphasis on springs will make the overall ride stiffer.

Emphasis on sway bars, without enough spring, can make the nose dive too much.

I got the so-called 1LE sways and love 'em. But that's just me.

I think the car has much less tendency to oversteer than it used to before the bars. If the tires are aired up to 35 anyway. If the rear tires are low (28psi - drag racing) it seems to oversteer more, especially since the fronts were still at 35...

[Dominic]

Swaybars are very helpful on a stock suspension - I outcornered a Camaro SS through the AutoX circuit many times over with just my sways and stock good for nothign Eagle GA tires :D

[O0oSKAMo0O]

i put the front sway bar from suspension techniques the diffrence was like night and day in the corners but it obviously doesnt affect ride quality in a straight line

Awnsers:

A) yes

B) no

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: O0oSKAMo0O ]</p>

[PiLOTLiTE]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by V6Bob:

The 1LE bars are intended to work with 1LE springs (and, there are two different "1LEs" for bars and springs). Most racers (and GM and SLP) think the 32/21 "1LE" combo has too much oversteer even with V8 springs. With V6 springs the oversteer would be substantially more. I'm not an expert, but this combo is definitely mismatched.<hr></blockquote>

I would have to disagree, I have 1LE bars 32/21 with the stock stuff and my car understeers under hard cornering everytime. Oversteer can be induced with throttle, but it does not tend to oversteer, nor is oversteer a problem.

[V6Bob]

"Oversteer can be induced with throttle, but it does not tend to oversteer, nor is oversteer a problem."

That's why it is a problem, and why GM and SLP don't use 32/21 bars, even with V8 springs. If throttle causes oversteer, your car is slower because it can't accelerate properly off a corner. It needs to understeer a little at no throttle so the rear tires can handle acceleration.

Watch a pro race. If the back end slides, even a little, the guy behind will accelerate better off the corner and close up or pass down the next straight.

Carroll Smith says it best: "The inexperienced driver feels heroic and the crowd is thrilled when the rear slides. In some ways it's a pity that it's not the fast way around the track."

Why pay good money for a 21mm rear bar to make your car slower?

[Dominic]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PiLOTLiTE:


I would have to disagree, I have 1LE bars 32/21 with the stock stuff and my car understeers under hard cornering everytime. Oversteer can be induced with throttle, but it does not tend to oversteer, nor is oversteer a problem.<hr></blockquote>

I agree, mine is the same way. When we say THROTTLE we mean "Gun 'er til she near 'bout spins the rubber and slides"

The oversteer is so mild I consider it NONEXISTANT with 1LE bars on a 2002 stock suspension. Have you run the 32/21 setup V6bob?

[PiLOTLiTE]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dominic:


I agree, mine is the same way. When we say THROTTLE we mean "Gun 'er til she near 'bout spins the rubber and slides"
?<hr></blockquote>

Exactly.

[V6Bob]

"Have you run the 32/21 setup V6bob?"

Yep. I was taken in by the hype and didn't do enough research. It took me one run in the mountains (and ten years of road racing experience) to realize what a poor and potentially dangerous setup this is. That's why I'm so strong on this.

I'm not asking people to trust me (obviously, I can't, I'm no expert). Look at GM's preferred setup for their Showroom Stock Race Cars (they used 32/21 as an initial try in '93 and quickly switched to 32/19 with stiff front springs, obviously because it was faster). Look at SLP's setups, designed by suspension experts. Read the stuff on bars on autocross forums at the camaroz28.com and ls1.com websites. None of the fast guys use 32/21s, even with V8 springs. Many use the solid 35mm front bar even with the added weight and/or use 500+ lbs/inch front springs. 32/21s and 223 or 257 front springs is an extreme setup. It just will not feel that way until you really press the car.

On V6 stock springs, 32/21 bars are not the hot setup. I am certain all suspension experts would strongly agree with that statement. And, in certain circumstances, they could be dangerous. I find it very hard not to warn people, especially the guys who ask what bars to use and know little about how bars affect handling or how large a change a 2mm change in diameter really is, especially on the rear.

Soft front springs are the reason why GM engineers put small rear bars on our cars. They didn't do it to screw up the handling.

Anyone know a professional suspension expert (not "a guy I know") that people could trust? I'm starting to sound like a broken record, and I really don't like it.

[Spray'dV6]

ok from what I've gathered here the 21 mm swaybar is not the way to go....but the 19 mm is? and the 32 mm is also the way to go...
here is the suspension I am about to be running:

bmr boxed subframe connectors
1le lca's
bmr stb and bmr adjust. poly panhard
eibach springs and slp takeoff shocks
and I am about to get the bmr 32 mm swaybar but I would like to find the 19 mm swaybar everyone is talking about as well.

any thoughts?

[Guardsman]

Sprayed V6.
It depends on the springs that you're using. The stiffer you make the rear-end (stiffer meaning more resistant to rolling), the more over-steer you're going to get. Stiffening the front counters that. So, you could either go with a 32/21 set-up, see how you like it, and if you had too much oversteer, go to a 35 front. Or, you could go with a 32/19 set-up, and if there was too much understeer, you could either go to a 21 rear or a 30 front.
I have WS6 springs up front, 1LEs in the rear, 1LE 32/21 sway bars, 1LE panhard bar, BMR STB, and Bilstein HDs, and I love the way it handles. I spend the majority of time on the freeway, and this is just right for that, not too stiff, but very stable and controllable, and it handles on/off-ramps great. Oh yeah, I also have 255/50/16 tires, so they also help.
Also, from what I've heard, the BMR sfcs are to be avoided, at least compared to the double-diamond designs, especially with lowering springs. Also, be careful using the Eibachs with the SLP take-off shocks, the shocks may not be able to handle the springs.

[V6Bob]

"I would like to find the 19 mm swaybar everyone is talking about as well"

They're used in pretty much every V8 4th gen. So - super cheap from a junkyard, or direct from GM if that's too much trouble.

[Seppo Kaitainen]

In the recent yrs the actual 1LE sways have been 35/21. Thats the set up I plan on running on my TA.

I'm kinda confused as to how a thinner rear sway (V6Bob's theory) actually increases rear traction creating slight understeer. Or is the relationship inverse on exit of the turn?

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Seppo Kaitainen ]</p>