Swaybar or Adj. PHB

[LordoftheBling]

considering getting one of the two along with some plugs and wires... which would be more fun with my set up.. im thinking sway bar.. the 1le bar..

i have eibachs, 17 X 10 wheels with 275's on them, bilsteins, SFC, LCA's and STB..car is a 2000 camaro..

the sway bar would only be the front one BTW.. and PHB i dont think is needed cause my axle is centered.. anyways i want both sooner or later but only buying one at a time... also where is teh ebst and cheapest place to get these parts..

thanks

[speedy-v6-camaro]

Do not replace just the front bar....please do a search on why you shouldn't do it. If your axle is centered I wouldn't worry about it that much....PHR are fairly cheap so I did it along with my LCAs. If you do the bars do them both. I ordered mine from gmpartsdirect.com.

[95DGcamaro]

I searched and found nothing, but was wondering why you are telling him to not just get the front swaybar? I have talked with many people almost all who know a lot about cars and do road racing at multiple tracks, and they say that having a new rear swaybar isn't always what you want to do, in fact it often causes your rear end to become lose(if it gets much bigger than 19mm w/poly bushings).

So i was just wondering what research you found this and i am interested in hearing it. (not trying to bad mouth you or anything, just trying to get more information before i buy mine for next spring)

[ January 27, 2004: Message edited by: 95DGcamaro ]</p>

[speedy-v6-camaro]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 95DGcamaro:
I searched and found nothing, but was wondering why you are telling him to not just get the front swaybar? I have talked with many people almost all who know a lot about cars and do road racing at multiple tracks, and they say that having a new rear swaybar isn't always what you want to do, in fact it often causes your rear end to become lose(if it gets much bigger than 19mm w/poly bushings).

So i was just wondering what research you found this and i am interested in hearing it. (not trying to bad mouth you or anything, just trying to get more information before i buy mine for next spring)

[ January 27, 2004: Message edited by: 95DGcamaro ]<hr></blockquote>

Swaybars are meant to be matched together and to springs. V6Bob has extensive knowledge on this and he may drop in and have some comments. Just search for swaybars and you will find a lot of info about what combos you should and shouldn't use.

[HAZ-Matt]

It won't be the end of the world if you don't do the rear bar, but you may want to consider a 17mm bar (Stock 93-97 V6), or maybe 19mm (Stock V8) at the most, on the rear if you put that 32mm 1LE bar on the front.

But I'm no expert... just a suggestion.

[CAMAROWIDBASS]

IF i were you just get the one up front and leave the stock in the back.

You wouldnt want to do a sharp turn when its wet and have the whole rear end do a 360 because its so stiff.

Some V8 guys swap out their rear sway bar for the 17mm

[speedy-v6-camaro]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CAMAROWIDBASS:
IF i were you just get the one up front and leave the stock in the back.

You wouldnt want to do a sharp turn when its wet and have the whole rear end do a 360 because its so stiff.

Some V8 guys swap out their rear sway bar for the 17mm<hr></blockquote>

I have pushed my car really hard and have yet to have my rear end kick out....because the 1LE bars are meant to be matched. Matched to each other and with stiffer springs. With the setup I have I can usually do 80-90 around corners that say 40....and there are some nice big S turns I can take at 100+. In the rain I have yet to lose any sort of control but I usually bring it down by 10 or so.

[Arctc Wolf]

swaybars are meant to be matched. yes, u can do just the front swaybar, but u'll gain a lot of understeer because of it, depending on the bar u go w/. the rear phr would be good as well, since it keeps the rear hooked better. the phr attaches the rear axle to the body, and the stock phr has the same stamped steel and crappy bushings that the lca's have, so around corners, it has the ability to flex and unload. it's kinda like making the axle hop sideways a little, depending on the traction of the tires and other variables. I'd say do the adj. phr, and make sure it's adjusted to the car w/ the driver in it, so that it's centered with the extra driver weight. save up for getting both swaybars down the road. If u have lowered the car at all, I'd say that the axle is off at least a little, so it'd be a good thing to do.

[HAZ-Matt]

Sway bars are usually used to balance the oversteer/understeer of a car with a certain type of springs and shocks. Just cause you put the 1LE bar on the front doesn't mean that it is "supposed" to go in the back.

Since you were originally interested in what V6Bob had to say...

December 23, 2001 12:12 PM
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by V6Bob:
Both of these 32/21 sets of bars will oversteer a lot more than the stock setups, particularly the late model 28/15s. Be careful.<hr></blockquote>

May 23, 2002 12:44 AM
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by V6Bob:
I think the 21mm rear bar (specifically the 32/21 combo which people appear to recommend without regard for tires)is too big and causes too much oversteer, especially with 98+ V6 springs. And, on that score, I have both personal experience and backing from experienced and successful autocrossers. With the 1LE springs (which have relatively stiffer fronts) they'd be more balanced, but still many autocrossers (and GM, who went to 32/19 after 93) still think they have a little too much oversteer.

While I agree that a 35mm bar is not going to suddenly make a car handle superbly, there's nothing magic about the 35mm bar versus the 32 with regard to interaction with tires. The 35 is not going to suddenly ruin handling. I honestly believe Strano (who I've talked to about bars and bought from) would support that. His comments are more aimed at the tires themselves, not interactions between the tires and bars.

I think we agree on the two important points that are often screwed up here.

1. The key to a good choice of antiroll bars is balance, not sheer size.

2. Bars need to be matched with other handling mods, particularly springs, and should be your last mod.

95silver - Your analysis is good for 97-back stock V6 springs. 98+ have stiffer rear springs and 28/15 bars and 35/19 is closer to the stock balance.<hr></blockquote>

December 09, 2002
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by V6Bob:
"Just want to inform you that SLp puts the 32 mm sway bar in the front and the uses the factory 14mm [should be 15?] in the rear on the RS Camaro and GT Firebird."

Thanks. I've often thought this might be a good setup for everyone except serious autocross competitors. And maybe even for them. Sam Strano used 35/19s on V8 springs on his Pro Solo National Champion car, so maybe 32/15s on V6 springs would be good. The 32 front bar will dramatically reduce roll and increase steering response. The car will feel great. The increase in understeer will be small, because of improved camber control. The rear bar does very little to reduce roll.

"I assume that they know what they are doing when the put these setup together. I believe that they are experts in outfitting f-bodies."

More than anyone you're likely to meet on the Net unless their last name is Strano .

"My question is, do you believe since they use the 32 mm in the front then since all stock V6 f-bodies have the exact same rear springs as z28's that come stock with the 19mm sway bar will it be ok to add this sway bar to compliment the 32mm in the front."

Once again, the rear bar and the rear spring are not meant to match each other. That's not how swaybars work. The _rear_ bar is set to match the _front_ spring and bar. That's why V6s have small rear bars, to match the soft front springs. GM didn't give gave the V6s small rear bars to screw up the handling. Believe me, they're doing the right thing. They also know something about setting up f-bodies.

"The only adverse sway bar setup I am aware of is the 32mm front and 21 mm rear setup which creates dramitic understeer[should be oversteer?]."

There are tons of bad swaybars being sold out there. It would be a very unusual setup that would use a 25mm rear, but at least two manufacturers sell them.<hr></blockquote>

And on and on...

If you didn't find anything when you searched, then try typing "sway bars" in the search field next time.

[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: HAZ-Matt ]</p>

[Blazzin Joe]

I will chime in on this. I personally know many SCCA instructors that will tell you that the 32/19 combo is MUCH more stable to race and drive than the 32/21...

I take advice from them quite often because these poeple KNOW what their talking about and WIN their classes and goto national events and such.

32/19 Combo or even the 32/stock rear combo are very streetable and very maintainable.

[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: Blazzin Joe ]</p>

[AllTheGoodNamesAreGone]

Well.. i am not getting involved with the sway bar argument that prevents this section of our fourm from progressing..

anyway..

IMO do the PHR.. it shuld have been done when you lowered the car.. finish what you started.. then think about sway bars..

[njspder]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Blazzin Joe:
I will chime in on this. I personally know many SCCA instructors that will tell you that the 32/19 combo is MUCH more stable to race and drive than the 32/21
[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: Blazzin Joe ]<hr></blockquote>


the thing to remeber is that the larger front proportion is usually seen as more stable because it at the limit it will tend towards understeer. understeer is easier to control, especially for a less experienced driver or soemone who is learning to go fast.
that is a good thing for learning and growing into your car, but eventually you are gonna want to put on the larger rear bar to help the car rotate more easily and allow you to gain the throttle earlier in the corner.

hope this helps

later
tim

[V6Bob]

I hadn't chimed in, because putting on a bigger front bar is not a subject where I'm confident. I'm not a pro, just a guy like you who reads a lot. I mostly post when I see someone considering something I know is bad.

All that said, what I know is that handling setups on some cars do just increase the front bar. It's what GM used to do with 1LE (except for a very few early 1LEs, which were a failed experiment). My wife's Corolla's handling package just put a small front bar on a car that had none. It's what SLP did with their handling package for the V6. Guys who autocross V8s do it all the time.

The theoretical reason it can work is that the front bar does several things. It transfers cornering load to the front, but it also improves wheel camber, making the front better able to handle the load. So the balance of the car is not radically altered, like is it with a big rear bar. In particular "you'll gain a lot of understeer because of it" is not true.

"the thing to remember is that the larger front proportion is usually seen as more stable because it at the limit it will tend towards understeer. understeer is easier to control, especially for a less experienced driver or soemone who is learning to go fast.
that is a good thing for learning and growing into your car, but eventually you are gonna want to put on the larger rear bar to help the car rotate more easily and allow you to gain the throttle earlier in the corner."

This is what sucked me in to this thread, because it's commonly stated and it's not true. Even an experienced driver in a pure race car needs some understeer, because the rear tires need to use some of their traction to accelerate, while all of the front traction can be used for cornering. "Rotating the car" with a big rear bar does nothing except _delay_ the point at which you can apply throttle. It doesn't cause the car to take a sharper arc through the corner, it just moves the rear toward the outside of the corner and makes it impossible to accelerate, because the rear tires are losing traction.

Watch the fast guys on the track or at an autocross. They don't rotate the car by sliding the rear, and they accelerate hard and early. They do that by having some understeer. On the street, where you have to cope with rain, you need even more understeer.

So, on V6 springs you will _never_ want a 21 rear.

"I will chime in on this. I personally know many SCCA instructors that will tell you that the 32/19 combo is MUCH more stable to race and drive than the 32/21..."

I'll bet they wouldn't race it if it wasn't also faster. And I'll bet they all have V8s. Even the 19 may be too big for V6 springs, one of many things I'm not sure about.

[ January 28, 2004: Message edited by: V6Bob ]</p>

[Ian]

i replaced just one swaybar on my car, the rear.

i went from a 17 to a 19. omg, it sucks. im takin it off as soon as it warms up. i get way too much oversteer, and mated w/ stock springs, it just blows. back end will either slide out on me, or come back around WAY too fast.