Hellwig Swaybars: Diameters' and Comments, Please Look!!!!

[95silver]

I have never heard any one here or any where else comment on these bars. I was considering the Suspension Techniques 35/25 mm like a lot of people. But I always hear that 25mm rear is too big and causes oversteer. I went to Hellwigs website Hellwig Products. I found out that thier rear bar is 1" or 25.4mm. But their front is 1 5/16" or 33.3375mm. The ratio is very different from others. 25.4/33.3375=1.3125
Here are the rest
30/19=1.5789
30/17=1.7647
32/21=1.52
35/25=1.4
Now if V-8 rear 19mm 1.5789 handles better than V-6 1.7647 ratio, then we can conclude that lower #=better handling, higher#=poor handling. So the ILE is even lower and Suspension Techniques even lower. But Hellwig is the lowest ration. So shouldn't they be the best ;) ? Their website has detailed explinations of swaybar importance and does not seem to be just a lot of bs to sell a product. They seem very knowledgeable and Summit sells their products for a very good price. Does anyone have Hellwig Swaybars? I think they would be killer :D .

[FirebirdGT]

The lower ratio combinations INCREASE oversteer on a V6 car.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: FirebirdGT ]</p>

[V6Bob]

That website is seriously oversimplified about swaybars, not knowledgeable or detailed. "No adverse effects" is baloney. Putting the wrong ones on can make your car unsafe. The site is trying to sell you their product.

On stock 98+ V6 springs (and probably with many other springs) that swaybar combo would have way too much oversteer, either for autocross or for the street.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: V6Bob ]</p>

[firebird1]

i just put on my 1le sway bars. i absolutly endorse these 100%. i have stock suspension and they work great. i can definatly feel the difference. they run like $200 with bushings and new endlinks from lmperformance.com

just a thought

[95silver]

So am I hearing everyone right? The only :rolleyes: swaybars that are beneficial are the ILE 32/21mm sets . Why does everyone downplay every other brand and combination? I know that a mismatched or large rear combo causes oversteer, but how much will you really notice this oversteer on the road? Just because GM designs something to be standard for F-bodies, doesn't mean there can't be a better design or product out their ;) . Everyone claims that GM designed the ILE swaybars to be perfectly balanced for our cars. Well if 32/21 is 2mm larger both front and rear, then shouldn't +3mm f/r or +5mm be as equally balanced ;) . The key is balancing the front to rear bars. Just because you have a very larger rear bar doesn't automatically mean it sucks :mad: . All you need is an equally as beefy front bar to compensate. I think these companies do send out a lot of [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] , but some of them probably do some sort of testing on their products. Not every aftermarket company is trying to rip off unsuspecting F-Body owners :D .

[V6Bob]

"Not every aftermarket company is trying to rip off unsuspecting F-Body owners . "

True, but the Hellwig stuff on sway bars was particularly misleading.

"So am I hearing everyone right? The only swaybars that are beneficial are the ILE 32/21mm sets "

Actually, I'm not a fan of the 32/21 bars (which GM only used in 93 before changing 1LE to 32/19), particularly on 98+ cars with stiff rear springs and soft fronts. Too much oversteer. The right swaybars depend on your springs - a lot. The really fast guys at autocross don't even like the 32/21s with V8 springs (see last paragraph).

"I know that a mismatched or large rear combo causes oversteer, but how much will you really notice this oversteer on the road? "

The worst case scenario is this. You're heading for an accident and you turn the wheel to avoid. If the car understeers it still turns and you may miss the accident. If not the understeer will slow the car down and the car may recover in time. If it oversteers and you spin, you are very likely to hit something at a good rate of speed.

The better question is : How much will you notice understeer on the road? I think most people would be happy with just a bigger front bar to reduce roll and quicken stering response. You'd only notice the understeer if you were going too fast for public roads, and maybe not even then, because of reduced camber change on the front wheels.

Even in autocross and other racing you need some understeer to be able to nail the gas sooner exiting a corner.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: V6Bob ]

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: V6Bob ]</p>

[95silver]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> I think most people would be happy with just a bigger front bar to reduce roll and quicken stering response. <hr></blockquote>
I've heard you before say that just a ST 35mm front bar and stock rear 19mm, or a 21mm will work very well, and still retain understeer. Is this true? Who runs one of these combos? I have read in a Camaro book that Dick Gulstrand took a 3rd Gen and put on one of his non adjustable panhard rods, shocks and springs and a 32mm front swaybar. But later switched it to a stock 30mm and put a 24mm in back to replace the original 18mm.

The article states that "Gulstrand's suspension philosophy stresses the importance of proper spring rates. Excessive reliance on sway bars for handling gains often causes a loss of high speed stability, a tendency to "wander" from strait ahead tracking during highway driving, and in tight corners may even produce lever effect as the stabilizer becomes, in effect, a torsion bar and tries to lift the outside front wheel. In short, huge sway bars can take the independence out of and independent suspension. Hence, the majority of chassis stiffness is achieved by careful selection of spring rates, and sway bars are used for fine-tuning the car, as required, for the vehicle's intended use and the individual driver's preferences. Finally, careful shock absorber design is used to tune out most of the inevitable rough ride tendencies caused by the stiffer suspension."
This was taken from F Notes Part 3 from The Best of Hot Rod Magazine: Camaro Performance 1989-1996.

[V6Bob]

"I've heard you before say that just a ST 35mm front bar and stock rear 19mm, or a 21mm will work very well, and still retain understeer. Is this true?"

It would be interesting to get some feedback from someone who tries a larger front with a stock rear. I think it would provide more roll control for the street than stock (which many people want), and be safer than the 32/21 combo, but I'm no expert. A lot of handling packages, including 94+ 1LE, just up the size of the front bar.

"Who runs one of these combos?"

A lot of people. Everyone who runs stock class autocross, where changing the rear bar is illegal. Everyone with a stock 1LE, except for a 93.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: V6Bob ]

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: V6Bob ]</p>

[DominusEtDeusNatus]

You can't just talk sway bars without talking about spring stiffness. It's pointless. You can't compare sway bars from different companies either. They don't all use the same material and the same process.

32/21 1LE with 1LE springs works very well for me.

I don't think you can compare a 3rd gen suspension to a 4th gen suspension.

[95silver]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dom:
You can't just talk sway bars without talking about spring stiffness. It's pointless. You can't compare sway bars from different companies either. They don't all use the same material and the same process.

32/21 1LE with 1LE springs works very well for me.

I don't think you can compare a 3rd gen suspension to a 4th gen suspension.<hr></blockquote>

Thats why I put in the article that states in the first sentence that Gulstrand stresses the selection of proper spring rates ;) . Like V6Bob said, I would like to know what people are running these combos and what springs they use. I really want to buy a set of sway bars and some springs, but can't decide :( , because I hear different opinions and facts from everyone . I had Eibach Sportlines on and even though they were made for the V-8 weight, they worked fairly well on my car. But They weren't perfect, and way to low. I want an awesome suspension combo :D . I'm almost on the point fustration :mad: of just ordering the ILE SLP Level 1 Package with the Bilstien shocks, Eibach springs, ILE arms+panhard rod, and front 32mm swaybar. At least SLP made an entire set of suspension and maybe it will work :rolleyes: .

[V6Bob]

Your frustraion is just a sign you understand reality. The people on this board do not have _the_ answer to the right suspension setup, just our guesses, some slightly more informed than others. A sure sign of _lack_ of information is when someone says "These bars are the best." There is no best, only what is right for a certain car in certain situations. Racers change the bars from track to track.

SLP no doubt knows more than any of us and a package from an experienced company may well be the best choice, particularly if they designed it specifically for the V6.

"You can't just talk sway bars without talking about spring stiffness. It's pointless."

Right. That happens a lot on this board, but this discussion has made a lot more references to springs than most.

"You can't compare sway bars from different companies either. They don't all use the same material and the same process."

The important things are OD (and ID, if hollow) and the length of the lever arm on the end (generally aftermarket bars use the stock lever arm length). By comparison, rate changes due to different steel or manufacturing process are small enough to be neglected.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: V6Bob ]</p>

[95silver]

Quick question? Does anyone know the rates on the H+R V6 springs?