1LE Front and rear sway bars. Just Do It!!!

[6birds]

I ordered my 1LE front and rear sway bars from GM parts direct recently. I must admit, I was a little concerned about doing this mod because a number of people on this site were saying to be careful because it would make my car unsafe. Being a 37 year old father of two, I was more than a little leary of doing anything that would negatively effect my car. I am here to tell you that the differnce it made to my car's handling is nothing short of amazing. The car is much more flat in any corner. It actually goes where I point it now. Hardly any body roll at all. Highway off ramps are now a pleasure rather than trying to lean against the corner, I now lean in to it while grinning all the way. I had these installed by my local Pontiac dealer.(Plaza Pontiac in Putnam CT, those guys are the greatest). Not because it was hard or anything, I just don't have much free time. They charged me $80. A great deal anyway you look at it. The bars and bushings and end links came out to just about $200. delivered from GM Parts Direct. After the tech installed these and took my car for a ride he came back into the waiting area to hand me the keys. He could not believe the difference it made. He said it was like night and day. He was going to reccommend it to his buddy that had a Trans Am. He said my car handled better than his buddies Trans AM!. I liked hearing that. But I like driving this car even more. Don't hesitate. JUST DO IT!!

[Arctc Wolf]

Already have them. yea, they make a big difference, especially w/ Z-rated tires so they stick.

[Dominic]

Thats awesome man, thats really awesome. You've started down the road of a long list of suspension mods now so hold on :D

I love mine, I know you love yours, and Im happy you're pleased with them. If they start to squeek (their only problem) its simple to grease the bushings (my rear one acted up earlier on).

Thanks for the review. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[V6Bob]

Look, I'm just posting a different opinion, I'm honestly not trying to be obnoxious or pig headed or start a war or win an argument.

These are facts (which nobody has ever disputed):

1. GM used these bars (32/21) for a very few early 4th gen cars intended for SCCA competition and then changed them to 32/19, presumably because they weren't the fastest setup (see number 2 for proof). More than 99% of the bars GM used for the 1LE option are 32/19, not 32/21.

2. The really fast guys don't like these bars(32/21s), with V8 springs. The reason they don't like them is too much oversteer. Check out the V8 boards. With V6 springs, especially in 98-02 cars, the oversteer will be substantially worse.

Those are facts. This is just my opinion, based on trying them. These bars will feel cool in normal spirited driving, because they cause the car to feel lively, because of the oversteer. That's why people like them. But, in an autocross or on a track, they will be slower than a setup with a smaller rear bar and less oversteer. Particularly in wet weather, the handling will be dangerous. If you make a sudden move to avoid an accident, wet or dry, you are more likely to lose control with these bars than with stock bars. Given the fact that GM dumped these right away for 32/19s I think calling them "1LE" gives them a status they don't deserve.

I post this stuff because I'm trying to help, not to win arguments. Of course, people are free to disagree. But there is just no way these bars are the hot setup for cornering. And that's not just my opinion, it's GMs, it's SLPs, it's Global Wests, and it's the fast guys opinion.

Research it for yourself.

[ April 27, 2003: Message edited by: V6Bob ]</p>

[Dominic]

I ran these bars on autocross and beat a Trans Am running stock bars on race compound tires by 4 seconds in the course several times over. I was on street rubber. They don't oversteer for me and they definetly work for how I drive. I need a lot more shock on my car though, the stocks are terrible and I will admit to that.

I believe GM does a lot of things to reduce the cost of the car, and consolidating down to running only the 19mm rear bar is a good way to cut costs. They are around to sell cars, not race them, and Fbody handling in the SCCA isn't their top priority...

Also, with softer springs I would think you would need more swaybar to compensate. The guys who don't like the 35mm front bar are running 600# springs. The guys who love the 35mm front bar are running 300-400# springs max.

The difference in the 19mm rear and 21mm rear is subtle, but in any case its a vast improvement over stock and I have never felt unsafe in my car whether racing it or cruising across the USA.

...but I still value your opinion V6bob and don't doubt it as being right. Its all in how you want the car to react to how you drive. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ April 27, 2003: Message edited by: Dominic ]</p>

[V6Bob]

"I believe GM does a lot of things to reduce the cost of the car, and consolidating down to running only the 19mm rear bar is a good way to cut costs. They are around to sell cars, not race them, and Fbody handling in the SCCA isn't their top priority..."

This is true now, but it was not true at the time GM made the change, back in 93. GM had recently brought out the 4th gen. The 1LE option was a very limited production race option, and GM did not originally intend to sell them to non-racers. You could not get a 1LE car with A/C, power windows, etc. At that time GM _did_ care a lot about winning SCCA races with the 1LEs.

"Also, with softer springs I would think you would need more swaybar to compensate. The guys who don't like the 35mm front bar are running 600# springs. The guys who love the 35mm front bar are running 300-400# springs max."

Absolutely true. Soft springs at the front of the car go with bigger sway bars at the _front_. But with a V6 having relatively stiff springs at the rear (relative to the front is what counts) the stiff rear bar is a bad idea.

It's all in the ratios, front/rear. The 98-02 V6s have the stiffest rear springs relative to the front. They need a bigger ratio of front bar to rear bar than a V8.

BTW, doesn't Strano run a 35mm bar in his F Stock (and stock springed) V8? :D

[AllTheGoodNamesAreGone]

nope.. he uses 1le

[V6Bob]

"nope.. he uses 1le"

Nope.

"On my F-Stock car I have the 35mm front and a 19mm rear.
__________________
Sam Strano
2002 ESP & FS ProSolo Nat'l Champ."

The smiley was because it was a rhetorical question - I knew the answer.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreGone]

I think i mixed his car up w/ mike snyders... again..

But! i am pretty sure the other day when i talked to him when i was ordering my suspension he said he put the 1le front bar back on and as crazy as this sounds "3rd gen rear shocks" on the back..

He is a crazy dude..

but knows his stuff

~Bill

[ April 27, 2003: Message edited by: AllTheGoodNamesAreGone ]</p>

[AllTheGoodNamesAreGone]

OHHHH.. thats his F-Stock car..
that ones ok, i believe saw it once about a year ago..
it is verry diffrent from his ESP class car..
the ESP one is the coool one..

I think he runs 3 diffrent cars FYI..

~Billy

[Dominic]

I don't want this argument to get out of hand, but I'm enjoying talking about it. [img]smile.gif[/img] I think if nothing else it helps people understand the struggles people can go through when setting up a car on paper, and the only real way to see whats best is to test and retest.

Now, 98-02's only.
Front Springs = 292lb/in V8, 257lb/in V6
Rear Springs = 114lb/in V8 and V6

460.9 lbs - LS1 (5.7L) Manual with oil and flywheel
428.8 lbs - L36 (3.8L) Manual with oil and flywheel

Thats only a difference of 32.1lbs up front, so why would GM go with the weaker springs on the 6? I have yet to figure this one out. Essentially the weights are the same though, but the weight placement is different as there is no overhang over the wheels. This is why I run the 32mm, as its *enough* bar for my needs. As for the rear bar, I haven't had the 21mm feel squirrley back there and don't understand where the oversteer problem occurs?

I think you've run the 1LE's bob, where did you find the problem with oversteer and what bar setup did you change to?

[Wicked 3800 V6]

Now, Don't let me chime in or anything ... but expect an a$$load of oversteer during regular driving unless you routinely stagger pressures front to back. Front higher (street for me is 35/31 or so, and autocross is 38/28 or 40/28)...
-Rob

[6birds]

Wow! Look what I started. I didn't mean to get any wars going here, I just wanted to let you know my opinion. Here's the way I see it, some like blondes, some like brunettes, and some like the wild redheads. No one is wrong, they're all good (I like the blondes, that's why I married a beautiful one). So getting back to the cars, that was we were talking about, right? Yes. For my use, which is daily driving on nice days, no winters, this set up is perfect. Not too stiff, not too much roll. I did take the car out right after I had them installed on a rainy day. Went to a deserted parking lot to see what the car would be like at the limits. This being my sixth Bird, I am very familiar with the rear breaking loose. The third gen used to slide around even if it was cloudy. LOL. This car suits my needs perfectly. Isn't that why we mod in the first place?

[6birds]

My car.

[ April 27, 2003: Message edited by: 6birds ]</p>

[AllTheGoodNamesAreGone]

Honestly.. as far as the rear bar goes.. It can be made to work either way.. it all depends on your springs/shocks and other components..

ex.. i run the 1le front bar.. and the larger rear bar..

When i was talking to sam.. he acctualy thought that it was a good thing for the v6's.. as long as you have a corrisponding spring/shock combo..

I agree with what dominic said somewhere.. it was something to the tone of "test, and retest" and see what you like..

It all a matter of figuring out what works for you..

~Billy