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**1DangerousV6** · 01-05-2005, 09:09 PM

if you're at all concerned about quick acceleration from a stop i would invest in some LCAs..maybe a pan hard rod...i also have 18x9.5s on all 4...and the spohn sway bar set..i believe they are 32/22 ..and the handling ROCKS! [img]smile.gif[/img]

**FireFighter** · 01-06-2005, 01:06 AM

Here comes V6BOB LOL. I was running 1LE bars front and rear but, I had much more suspension work than just the bars.

**PewterBird** · 01-06-2005, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by FireFighter:
Here comes V6BOB LOL. I was running 1LE bars front and rear but, I had much more suspension work than just the bars.

Ill just post his stock reponce

Here's what I know:

Swaybars are a very powerful mod. It is relatively easy to screw up your cars handling. Most people on the web don't understand bars. The purpose of the front bar is mostly to control roll. The purpose of the rear bar is mostly to set the handling balance. The rear bar does little to control roll. If you take the advice of a stranger on the web (and that includes me) about what specific bars to use at face value you're foolish.

Here's what I think I know:

You've made a modest change to the front bar by going from 30 to 32. That won't change the handling balance much, because, at the front, the improved camber control partly (mostly?) cancels out the increased weight transfer.

Changing the rear bar from 17 to 19 is, relatively, a much more serious change in stiffness. That will affect the handling balance substantially because camber control is not an issue at the rear. The car will oversteer more. In an emergency situation, particularly in the wet, that could cause you to spin into something you're trying to avoid. "Just stick with the stock rear bar for now and see if you like the setup." That's from silvachris1, and I agree.

Here's what I'm pretty darn sure of:

With stock V6 springs and V6 weight distribution the 22 bar is downright dangerous. _Way_ too much oversteer.

Here's my opinion:

I'm puzzled by what silvachris1 said about his own choice of a 21 rear. He says the 21 "will still lose traction easier than stock". That's what I think too and, if it were my car, that would be unacceptable. On the street oversteer is unsafe. On the track, it's slow because it delays the point at which you can apply full throttle. That's particularly true in autocross, which generally has a lot of slow corners.

When Strano uses an 19 or a 21 rear bar it's on a very different car, a V8 (more forward weight distribution) with stiff front springs. No way is that the hot setup on a V6 on stock springs, even on the track, much less the street.

Brand matching doesn't make a diffrence, as long as they are quality parts. You should get your front bar on first, then see how you like it.

**V6Bob** · 01-06-2005, 11:46 AM

Note that that advice was given to a guy with stock V6 springs.

DarkEcho has stiff lowering springs, which changes things. The general principles apply. You always need to be very cautious about using a too large rear bar. But anything I said that's specific re bar size may not be valid here. I just don't know.

"my question is, i have heard that its best to keep suspension parts matching with brand.. so if i have bmr sfcs, does it REALLY make that big of a difference if i go with 1LE sways or G2 Sways or whatever?"

DarkEcho - Inactive chassis braces (like sfcs) and active suspension parts (like bars) are totally different deals, and matching them is irrelevant. The important match is between springs, shocks, and swaybars, the active suspension parts. And it isn't brands you need to match, it's rates.

At the risk of pissing you off I'm going to be tough here. The fact that the above paragraph was not immediately obvious to you tells me that you don't have enough knowledge to be messing around with your suspension. It's not safe. Get some advice from a paid professional. Random guys Internet opinions are not a substitute. Sorting out good opinions from bad ones requires a lot of knowledge.

**RGB** · 01-06-2005, 01:32 PM

Very few people are going to have enough knowlege to build a well balanced suspension system from individual parts (even if they look up spring rates etc). Here is where following a brand can help out. Find out who makes a package that meets your needs and buy the whole well balanced, safe, and fast thing (springs shocks swaybars etc.) Remember, some packages are to look good and some are to be fast so if you want to autocross talk to someone who autocrosses their own products.

Since you have Eibach springs, what does Eibach recomend for sway bars for your intended use? In fact, shouldn't Eibach have a the software to tell which rear bar will make you neutral if you tell them your going to use a 35 mm hollow front bar (why go smaller or heavier?) and have SFC? If not for the V6 then for the LS1, the engines are about the same weight.

You can soften too stiff sway bars a little at either or both front and back by using the OEM bushings on the end links. In fact, you may find you want the OEM bushings in the back for daily driving and high speed autocross but switch to the polyurathane for parking lot autocross with its tight turns where cars tend to push.

If you still have your 16" rims you may want to put those back on for autocross (18" tires are expensive and may be slower than 16" tires).

**DarkEcho** · 01-06-2005, 05:35 PM

thanks everyone for the input and you did not piss me off V6Bob lol... you may not agree with my methods but forums and online is how i learn about everything... EVERYTHING... i learned everything i know about nitrous, never once did i talk to a paid professional... mostly because of the lack of them around here..

I dont know where to find rates on springs and shocks or whatever and what to even do with those numbers once i get them.. i have just seen people selling sways and slapping sways on left and right and saying its awesome, so i had no idea that there was more to it...

come to think of it, my autox style will be just for fun so i really dont care about squeezing every last ounce of performance out, i just want to to feel cool. thats all... tell me how to make it feel cool? im thinking that ill not go as much as 35, ill stay 32/21 or 32/19 with BMR solids... ill just do that... maybe ill even just order the front first and rear later.. thanks guys, still open to any suggestions

**Vracer111** · 01-07-2005, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by DarkEcho:
thanks everyone for the input and you did not piss me off V6Bob lol... you may not agree with my methods but forums and online is how i learn about everything... EVERYTHING... i learned everything i know about nitrous, never once did i talk to a paid professional... mostly because of the lack of them around here..

I dont know where to find rates on springs and shocks or whatever and what to even do with those numbers once i get them.. i have just seen people selling sways and slapping sways on left and right and saying its awesome, so i had no idea that there was more to it...

come to think of it, my autox style will be just for fun so i really dont care about squeezing every last ounce of performance out, i just want to to feel cool. thats all... tell me how to make it feel cool? im thinking that ill not go as much as 35, ill stay 32/21 or 32/19 with BMR solids... ill just do that... maybe ill even just order the front first and rear later.. thanks guys, still open to any suggestions

With what was said above regarding big rear sway bars on stock springs, I personally find it presenting no problems on the street with my Camaro's current setup (Hotchkis sport Hollow swaybar set with stock springs, Koni Sport single adjustable dampers, and 245/50-16 Yokohama ES-100 tires.) And yet when I switch to race rubber (275/40-17 Nitto NT-555RII's on 17x9.5 Z06 wheels) it performs exactly like it should when autocrossing. Main thing is rear damper rebound rate - if it's set too stiff that causes the rear end to come around all to eagerly when cornering, especially on off-camber turns (..ask me how I know... [img]redface.gif[/img] ). With properly set rear damper rates the camaro just plain carves a race line beautifully using my above setup with the BIG Hotchkis sport sway bars on stock springs. Steering the camaro (or any other performance car) is more right foot movement than steering wheel movement anyways - and a properly upgraded suspension setup really allows for steering with the throttle more precisely. I really should get the video from this last weekends autocross onto the computer and uploaded somewhere so you can see what I'm talking about.

I do realize though that not everybody likes a car setup where you have to pay 100% attention to your driving 100% of the time - which is why I have a daily driver Tacoma. However, you really have to intentionally drive recklessly on the street to make the car step out of line - and reckless is not how I drive on the street. Personally the Hotchkis Sport bars and the Koni dampers are the two things that have turned the V6 from a wandering, flabby street car into a very competent, responsive autocrosser.

If you are looking into swaybars for autocrossing or other competition purposes then hollow is the way to go - especially in the front. And it really is best to get a matched set of swaybars for the car and put them both on at the same time. Running a stock bar on one end with upgraded bar at the other end isn't optimal. But if you must upgrade one at a time, front is the recommended first upgrade for most people.

**V6Bob** · 01-07-2005, 10:29 AM

I'm going to disagree here. :D

"Steering the camaro (or any other performance car) is more right foot movement than steering wheel movement anyways - and a properly upgraded suspension setup really allows for steering with the throttle more precisely."

In racing, steering with the throttle (getting on and off it to adjust the cars attitude) on pavement(especially with a 3500lb 200hp car) means you cannot get the throttle wide open as soon as otherwise possible. It's fun, but it's not fast. Every pro racer knows that if his throttle foot is _ever_ doing anything but _smoothly increasing_ as he comes out of the corner, two things are true. The car has too much oversteer. The guy behind him is going to get on it sooner and harder and make up some ground. 'We don't race around corners. We dragrace between them.' Carroll Smith.

"However, you really have to intentionally drive recklessly on the street to make the car step out of line"

Nope. All that has to happen is that some clown does something and you need to swerve to avoid him. Rain makes it happen (a lot) more easily.

[ January 07, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: V6Bob ]

**memphis_raines** · 01-07-2005, 11:17 PM

My IQ just went up 30 points from reading this thread, just in time to install my 1LE front swaybar this weekend! :D

**Vracer111** · 01-07-2005, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by V6Bob:
I'm going to disagree here. :D

"Steering the camaro (or any other performance car) is more right foot movement than steering wheel movement anyways - and a properly upgraded suspension setup really allows for steering with the throttle more precisely."

In racing, steering with the throttle (getting on and off it to adjust the cars attitude) on pavement(especially with a 3500lb 200hp car) means you cannot get the throttle wide open as soon as otherwise possible. It's fun, but it's not fast. Every pro racer knows that if his throttle foot is _ever_ doing anything but _smoothly increasing_ as he comes out of the corner, two things are true. The car has too much oversteer. The guy behind him is going to get on it sooner and harder and make some ground. 'We don't race around corners. We dragrace between them.' Carroll Smith.

Steering with the throttle is the fastest way to get around corners. I'm not talking about power-on oversteering or drifting techniques. I'm talking about adjusting the pressure of your right foot on the accelerator with almost immeasurable precision to ride a correct slip angle that allows maximum acceleration through a turn without any wasted movement requiring additional steering correction (and I have yet to master this...). If you are using the steering wheel to precisely adjust the car when cornering, you are using a less precise input than if you were properly using your right foot to shift the cars weight around. And it makes for a lot more work to steer an understeering car with throttle than a neutral or slightly oversteering one. The name of the game is going faster around the whole track/course - "if you come out of the turn faster you will cover EVERY FOOT of the following straight at a higher speed." - Henry A. Watts.

And how do you come out of a turn faster? by accelerating through the turn. "Increasing the weight at the rear without increasing the mass at the rear will allow the tires to get a better grip, decreasing any natural oversteering tendency. Additionally, the weight transfer pushes the back of the car down, lowering the center of gravity at the rear of the car. This means that the car will tip less to the outside of the turn, leaving more weight on the inside rear tire. This is helpful, as, if the inside tire can help a bit more, you can go faster before the outside tire gets tired of the drill and lets go." - Henry A. Watts.

"However, you really have to intentionally drive recklessly on the street to make the car step out of line"

Nope. All that has to happen is that some clown does something and you need to swerve to avoid him. Rain makes it happen (a lot) more easily.

Situation awareness and defensive driving help to nearly elimnate this... Rain or shine, doesn't matter; you drive accordingly to the road conditions, your vehicle capabilties, and the possible scenarios that could occur. You can't just react and expect to keep 'control' of the situation - you have to be able to anticipate all the plausible possibilities and have a strategy for each one. And the better you know your cars handling the better chance you have of keeping it going straight down the road when extreme situations call for extreme measures.

P.S. Let me just add one thing - everybody has different preferences which work for them when it comes to car handling. My personal preference is slight oversteer to neutral at the limit; and that is how my camaro is setup - with slight oversteer. Also the reason I bought the camaro was not for a daily driver, it was for a track/autocross car that could be driven on the street...

[ January 08, 2005, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Vracer111 ]

**V6Bob** · 01-08-2005, 01:39 PM

I don't think Watts is advocating oversteer, as you are. And I still say, if a race driver is playing with the throttle to set the car's attitude, he's losing time to the driver who's on the right line at the right speed and is at the maximum possible throttle opening, because his car is properly set up to do exactly that.

The point is that, at the all important exit, the front wheels only have to corner, the rear also have to accelerate. So more of the cornering load needs to be sent to the front by the setup. This means, under anything other than full throttle, the fast race car _must_ understeer. At full throttle a race car should ideally be neutral. If you can move the rear out with the throttle (especially with a low power/weight ratio), that's telling you that you have too much oversteer.

I suggest to you the book "Going Faster - Mastering the Art of Race Driving", which gets into the stuff a lot more deeply than we (or Watts) are. They don't talk about steering with the throttle, except as a way to get out of trouble on the race track. They talk about steering a precise line and using as much throttle as possible, as soon as possible.

"you drive accordingly to the road conditions, your vehicle capabilties, and the possible scenarios that could occur"

I'm glad you can anticipate everything. Me, I think stuff happens. And, when it does, an oversteering car will bite you, bad. Fast race cars have some understeer and add substantially more when it rains, street cars need more initially, to cover a variety of conditions.

I'm done here, you can have the last word.

[ January 08, 2005, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: V6Bob ]

**Vracer111** · 01-09-2005, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by V6Bob:
I don't think Watts is advocating oversteer, as you are. And I still say, if a race driver is playing with the throttle to set the car's attitude, he's losing time to the driver who's on the right line at the right speed and is at the maximum possible throttle opening, because his car is properly set up to do exactly that.

The point is that, at the all important exit, the front wheels only have to corner, the rear also have to accelerate. So more of the cornering load needs to be sent to the front by the setup. This means, under anything other than full throttle, the fast race car _must_ understeer. At full throttle a race car should ideally be neutral. If you can move the rear out with the throttle (especially with a low power/weight ratio), that's telling you that you have too much oversteer.

I suggest to you the book "Going Faster - Mastering the Art of Race Driving", which gets into the stuff a lot more deeply than we (or Watts) are. They don't talk about steering with the throttle, except as a way to get out of trouble on the race track. They talk about steering a precise line and using as much throttle as possible, as soon as possible.

"you drive accordingly to the road conditions, your vehicle capabilties, and the possible scenarios that could occur"

I'm glad you can anticipate everything. Me, I think stuff happens. And, when it does, an oversteering car will bite you, bad. Fast race cars have some understeer and add substantially more when it rains, street cars need more initially, to cover a variety of conditions.

I'm done here, you can have the last word.

All I'd like to say is setting up a car for autocrossing is not the same as setting up a car for track days or road course events. Neutral handling is preferred by almost everybody on track, including myself. And before I push it at TWS again on my new suspension I'd like to have it adjusted to be neutral (meaning more work, because the last thing you want to do is blow Turn 1 braking zone at 120 mph by getting squirrely coming off the bank... it's squirrely enough with stock springs/swaybar setup to get down to ~80mph by turn 2 entry. So I agree with you 100% - if you are talking about a road course handling. But for autocrossing (which is what this thread is about) slight oversteer is acceptable on tight radius courses; sometimes you have to snap that rear end around more quickly, which neutral steering might not let you do. All that I'm really trying to say in this thread is that stock springs + Adjustable Konis + Hotchkis Swaybars = a safe handling street car in the right hands. The rear shocks determine the sensitivity mainly, set them full soft for street (which is stiffer than stock BTW). I agree that stuff happens on the road. It mostly happens to drivers who are not paying attention to driving because most accidents that happen are avoidable. Driving on the roads everyday is more scary than running on a track...

**Ender2664** · 01-10-2005, 01:12 AM

The reason it is so hard to give other people suspension advice, which all these guys are hinting at but i will say staright out for those who arn't catching on, is that the suspesion that is best for you, is the one that is best for you. Doesn't that sound stupid! Well that is the thing, you are going to have to balance how you want your car to perform with how you drive it on a daily basis...that is why some people have 2 cars. Cause how you like to drive your car on the street might be considered dangerous if you are using the same set up to drive during races.
When the car is your daily you are going to need to balance the two, and what they are doing is much better than telling you what to do, they are telling you what does what. This way you can make your own informed discisson! And if you don't know how you are going to drive it, just keep it as safe as possible, until you do.
Plus you need to add in your driving skills, and 9 out of 10 drivers think that they can drive alot better than they can, so that is why it is impossible to staright up tell you what to use. You need to learn and then make the decision. Don't ask what to use, say i am considering this change in my suspension, what is this going to do on how the car drives both on and off the track? That is a much better question.(Not aimed at anyone, so don't get offened).
And yes i know i can't spell, and now i won't use spell check, so don't ask me to!

**DavidSiri** · 01-10-2005, 01:12 AM

Solid 35 MM front Sway, Suspension Techniques
Hollow 21 MM 1LE Sway bar for the rear. That's my setup and I love it.

I also have SFC's, Boxed LCA's, Tubular K, Adjustable Panhard Rod and soon I'll have some 2.5" lowering springs or so and Bilstein HD's, should make for a killer setup.

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