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  • 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

    Hi,

    I am new here, so first let me say HELLO and tell you that you have a fantastic forum here. :banana:

    I just bought this 2001 convertible V6 with a hair under 42k miles. It is bright red, new upholstery and has a new paint job. I've had it for a little over 48 hours and I've already got a whisper lid and K&N filter on its way. I have a Haynes manual but as you know, they are not too detailed (I use it just for things like torque specs and warnings about sensitive gadgets).

    My other car is a 1998 Saturn SL with H&R sport springs, strut tower bar, Falken Azenis tires. This Saturn has 193K miles and handles like a go-cart up to 90mph.
    On the other hand, my Camaro handles like a boat over 40mph. Granted, it is a convertible and is about 1,200 pounds heavier, so I do expect some sluggish handling and some body flexing. However, now I can see that this is may end up costing me a lot of time and money before I even get a change to hook up my 2 amps and 15inch sub (box is sealed with about 1 foot of air) in the trunk.


    Please (PLEASE) help me tune the suspension on my boat. The thing is too high, so I am going to lower it, but I noticed that H&R does not make springs for Camaro convertibles. Also, I've been reading all over this forum that the shocks are what I am really looking for in this case. So I'm thinking maybe AGX or Bilstein HD. And then I was thinking about springs, but by this point I am ignoring the critical chasis flex problem.

    What should I do?
    I like to take things one step at a time with suspension. I understand that I may have to do the shocks and springs at the same time, but I'm wondering if I should just get those from an online retailer for a low cost and head to a shop to ay for installation, or if I should buy the parts and labor at a shop instead?

    My next step after the intake was to put a strut tower bar in there.
    What are my options (looking for value: effective results, but on a budget).
    Do they have front (top) as well as rear (top)? I understand there are subframe connectors, but are those for use with convertibles? How much does this stuff cost and can you recommend a decent online retailer?

    I can install everything myself except for springs/shocks.

    Thank you for reading this and offering your input.

  • #2
    Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

    The subframe connectors would be a good place to start, and likely where you'll be the best bang for your buck; and yes, you can use them on a convertible. I've seen them on ebay for around $120. There are two types: weld on and bolt on. I would recommend the weld ons if you weld or know someone who does, as they are stronger.
    1998 M5 3.8 Mystic Teal Camaro<br />Flowmaster exhaust, Pacesetter headers, 3\" cat, 3\" S-pipe, whisper lid, ram air, Spec Stage 1 clutch, Poly Trans mount, Walbro 255LPH. Numerous appearance mods.<br /><br /> <a href=\"http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2130533\" target=\"_blank\">http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2130533</a>

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    • #3
      Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

      First get some subfrane connectors. Weld in is generally prefered. Make sure they are specifically made for the vert because if they are for the coupes they won't work with the other bracing on your car. Try to find a shop that has some experience welding them in if possible. If they lift the car incorrectly they could weld a bend into the chasis.

      After that I would probably look into shocks and springs at the same time. Then strut tower bar, lower control arms, sway bars, and anything else you might want to tweak.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

        Sluggish handeling for a 4th generation can be corrected for the most part in three main areas:

        1. Good shocks: The stock ones are really junk to begin with. Bilstein HDs or better (like koni sports) would be a good idea. This will get rid of most of the excess handling sluggishness by itself. Springs and shocks would be good to replace at the same time (especially the fronts!), but upgraded springs are not really a neccessity to get rid of sluggish handling. Well at least they aren't on my coupe, which is on stock springs but some 150+ lbs lighter than when it was stock. The camaro is weird with the respect to lowering because of the front suspension/rear suspension relationship. Lowering a Camaro doesn't automatically mean you are improving the handling, in fact you could be doing the opposite if you lower it not much from stock and increase rear body roll.

        2. Good tires: If you don't have good high performance tires, you won't get the most out of your vehicle. Tires along with shocks are the two major components that will have the biggest impact on responsiveness. Of course you make compromises when going with high performance street tires which include higher prices, shorter life, more road noise, and no drivability in snow/ice conditions. But it is worth it if you really care about how you vehicle performs.

        3. Anti-roll bars: Once good shock and tires are on the car, it would be logical to next upgrade the front and rear Anti-roll bars to eliminate some of the factory handling sloppiness. Hollow anti-roll bars are ideal (less weight with near equal capacity of a solid bar) and a 32-35mm front bar with 19-21mm rear bar seems to be good for most people. Front bar will reduce body roll and rear bar will help bring the camaro into a more neutral/oversteer handling car.

        Subframe connectors are a good idea from what everybody says, though some autocross champions and driving instructors actually prefer not to run chassis bracing with their setup (on convertable cars too).

        Not sure how useful "strut" bars are on a Camaro since there is not a consensus on whether they improve handling or not. They may or may not be of any real benefit for handeling on a 4th generation camaro. Personally I don't run a front "strut" bar because I want as much weight off the front as possible and my camaro handles precisely enough as is without a "strut" bar. See no benifit for the cost spent.

        Lower control arms help tighten the rear end some, but I haven't really noticed much of a handling change going from stock lower control arms to spherical bearing race ones. The change that is noticeable with spherical bearing rear control arms is that the camaro wants to follow the road surfaces more with the 275/40-17 racing tires on front and rear. Changed out the front set to the stock wheels with 245/50-16 Yokohama ES-100's and it cruises like nearly stock.

        If you really want in depth information on 4th Gen Camaro chassis suspension improvement check out the following link:

        F-Body Chassis & Suspension Guide
        Last edited by Vracer111; 07-06-2006, 05:09 PM.
        <a href=\"http://www.cardomain.com/id/vracer111\" target=\"_blank\">My \'98 Camaro</a><br /><br /><a href=\"http://www.honda-tech.com/garage?cmd=viewcar&id=1223\" target=\"_blank\">My \'98 Tacoma</a>

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        • #5
          Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

          some people swear up and down about sfcs, while some people say they wont do any good. i dont personally have them so i cant tell you. but i can tell you what i've done, and that my car is the best handling car ive ever been in.

          first was shocks and springs. slp/blistein shocks with eibach prokit springs. not the perfect setup, but leagues above stock. kyb-agx shocks may be a better pairing with the springs as the bilsteins are more tuned for stock springs.

          i saw a noticeable improvement, but the ride was a little rough. i had mismatched tires which obviously had to go.

          got new wheels and tires. 17x9 ss wheels and 275/40/17 kumho exsta asx tires. huge improvement. super smooth feeling.

          car cornered excellent but wasnt flat. turns out my front sway bar had broken in an accident. ordered up a 32mm gm swaybar with energy suspension poly bushings and endlinks. car handles amazingly.

          however, when you lower your car, you mess with the suspension geometry. the rear axle gets closer to the car, and you lose traction. my next mod is going to be bmr lca relocation brackets (and maybe lcas if i have the money.) ive gone sideways a few times and have an incredibly easy time of spinning my huge tires with my tiny 3.4.

          i may need a rear sway in the future. 19mm most likely.

          i got most of my parts from summitracing.com. the swaybar was from ebay, brand new, theres always a few for auction. and i got the energy suspension stuff from energysuspensionparts.com
          <a href=\"http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2265676\" target=\"_blank\">95 bright red camaro 3.4l</a>

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          • #6
            Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

            Vracer111 pretty much has it nailed, tho he and I disagree strongly about how to tune the balance with the rear antiroll bar. He likes to go to mild oversteer with a big rear bar, I believe that a smaller rear bar and a bit of understeer is both safer and faster. His comments about sfcs are related to autocross rules more than function. To recap, in my words:

            Subframe connectors are a _must_ on a convertible. Proper installation is more important than exactly which sfcs (must be for a convertible) you get. A lot of autocross guys don't run them because they put the car in a high (very modified) class. But you need them. "Suspension" by chassis flex is a poor idea on anything but a go cart. A shock tower brace provides a bit of additional stiffness, but some people don't like the additional weight/cost.

            If you want good handling, do not cheap out on the shocks. Bilsteins or Konis.

            Don't forget good tires. Very low profile tires corner best on dry pavement and most people think they look nice but can be hard to live with (ride, nibbling over road irregularities). Somewhat higher profile tires corner well enough and are more pleasant to live with. They also work better on wet pavement.

            Lowering and aftermarket lcas are overrated mods. Can cause as many problems as they solve. 1LE lcas and a 1LE Panhard rod (stiffer rubber bushings) might be a good idea.
            Last edited by V6Bob; 07-09-2006, 12:02 PM.
            2000 Firebird convert, chameleon/tan, M5, Y87, TCS, BMR tower brace and panhard, KBDD sfcs, 245/50-16 GSCs

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            • #7
              Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

              I thought they put the subframes on the convertible from the factory... Maybe I'm wrong here, but what I thought..

              Anyways ya a guy I know has the same problem with his '01 Z28, just ticked about the way it feels.. So we got him setup with some new Eibach/Bilstein setup, a strut tower connector, and a set of subframe connectors, all for about $800... Pretty simple done, and we all figure he will be more than happy. See in a few days..

              Heck if you really want to stiffen it up, go get yourself a cage :)

              What do aftermarket LCAs and relocation kits do that is bad? This is something I was really looking at doing soon! Mainly because my lcas are shot to start with and the relocation kit puts more direct movement on your shocks. Intead of the tire/rim/and axle.... Just wondering they were strongly recomended to me for track driving, and now I am curious.
              Last edited by Nikos95; 07-09-2006, 08:25 PM.
              1995 Camaro 3.4 A4<br /><br />CAI,IAT Relocate

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              • #8
                Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

                Originally posted by Nikos95
                I thought they put the subframes on the convertible from the factory... Maybe I'm wrong here, but what I thought..
                They do put extra chassis bracing in, which is why you need convertible specific sfcs, to clear it. Otherwise the car would almost fold up because of the lack of a roof. It's not enough, the convert chassis is still the most flexible fbody.

                Originally posted by Nikos95
                What do aftermarket LCAs and relocation kits do that is bad? This is something I was really looking at doing soon! Mainly because my lcas are shot to start with and the relocation kit puts more direct movement on your shocks. Intead of the tire/rim/and axle.... Just wondering they were strongly recomended to me for track driving, and now I am curious.
                Aftermarket lcas frequently have bushings made out of the wrong material for a number of reasons. Rubber is the hot setup here for a street driven car.
                2000 Firebird convert, chameleon/tan, M5, Y87, TCS, BMR tower brace and panhard, KBDD sfcs, 245/50-16 GSCs

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

                  Originally posted by V6Bob
                  They do put extra chassis bracing in, which is why you need convertible specific sfcs, to clear it. Otherwise the car would almost fold up because of the lack of a roof. It's not enough, the convert chassis is still the most flexible fbody.



                  Aftermarket lcas frequently have bushings made out of the wrong material for a number of reasons. Rubber is the hot setup here for a street driven car.

                  Aww okay, good to know. So basically if I find a set and can still use rubber bushings it shouldn't cause me any problems then?
                  1995 Camaro 3.4 A4<br /><br />CAI,IAT Relocate

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                  • #10
                    Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

                    Does anyone have an idea where I can get subframe connectors installed around the san jose (bay area california)? I would want the weld type. I just don't know of any shops around here. Even if I did see one driving around, I would have no idea what their weld work quality could be like.

                    At least with shocks and springs, I could almost take the car anywhere to get those installed (everything else I do myself, except for the welding).

                    I'll take a good look at my sway bar mountings to confirm that nothing is broken.

                    So the strut bar will do nothing for the flexing? I'll try it anyway just because it is so cheap and easy to install.

                    I've driven a v6 mustang convertible pretty hard (rental I had for a week) and the suspension was tighter than my camaro's. I guess I assumed that the chasis rigidity was the same on both vehicles and that the mustang had a stiffer suspension than the camaro. From my experience, I would first think the problem is spring rates and shocks. Now I am really curious about how much of this is body flex.

                    I found BMR's sub frame connectors (27-SFC003) for $180 + shipping. Depending on how my current order with them goes, I think I'll jump on these very soon.

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                    • #11
                      Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

                      Originally posted by BobDoLe

                      I've driven a v6 mustang convertible pretty hard (rental I had for a week) and the suspension was tighter than my camaro's.
                      I dunno, i killed my buddies v6 mustang on the curves with us both running stock suspension, however i do think that the mustang has a more comfortable ride.
                      2000 v6 a4 Camaro

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                      • #12
                        Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

                        Originally posted by lookout4theyeti
                        I dunno, i killed my buddies v6 mustang on the curves with us both running stock suspension, however i do think that the mustang has a more comfortable ride.
                        Sad part...

                        My suspension in my '95 V6 is harder than my friends in his '95 GT.... And that really pisses him off.. And no I didn't do anything yet. I have the springs, waiting for my local shop to get the shocks in. Then I get to mess with my lca's, ball joints, panhard bar, and new sway bars... Should lock me down pretty good. Can't wait to get in lineup with a few of the guys in my local group with Z28s...
                        1995 Camaro 3.4 A4<br /><br />CAI,IAT Relocate

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                        • #13
                          Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

                          i reccommend getting bilsteins from here http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/pe...6&brandid=1255

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                          • #14
                            Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

                            Update:

                            I bolted on the cheap(er) BMR "strut" tower brace (or stb if you prefer).
                            It makes a HUGE difference on the convertible.
                            Prior to the stb installation, you couldn't feel the tires plant when the steering wheel turned and the weight shifted - as I mentioned, it felt like a boat. After the stb installation, the front chasis feels firm during cornering (pretty much from 10 mph and all the way up). The suspension is still stock (and soft) but at least it resembles what I would expect from a Chevrolet sports car. Of course the nose diving and the body rolling are still there, but the communication between tires and driver has gotten much better.

                            I'm reconsidering how to go about upgrading the rest of the suspension now; the springs feel just right for ride comfort and the progressive effect (are they even progressive rate?) gives the right feel when I fly through a corner. I'm thinking I could put some bilstein hd's on there and leave it until I get low profile tires or tires with reinforced sidewalls, then go for adequate spring rates and a slight drop.

                            The front chasis feels nice and stiff, but that totally makes the driver aware of the flexing going back to the rear.

                            SFC's, bilstein hd's, and better tires are next on the menu.

                            Too bad Falken does not make the Azenis anymore:( the reinforced sidewalls are great. Does anyone know of a decent autocrossing or high performance 255/50/16 (will those fit on the rim or will i have to do 245/50/16?) with stiff sidewalls?

                            Thanks for all the help

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                            • #15
                              Re: 2001 V6 Convertible: Drives like a boat

                              Originally posted by BobDoLe
                              I bolted on the cheap(er) BMR "strut" tower brace (or stb if you prefer).
                              It makes a HUGE difference on the convertible.
                              Interesting. Most people don't find a huge difference. On my convert, sfcs and shocks made substantially more difference.

                              Originally posted by BobDoLe
                              SFC's, bilstein hd's, and better tires are next on the menu.
                              Good plan.

                              Originally posted by BobDoLe
                              Does anyone know of a decent autocrossing or high performance 255/50/16 (will those fit on the rim or will i have to do 245/50/16?) with stiff sidewalls?
                              You need to say more about what you want from tires. For autocrossing, Hoosiers are nice. Of course, they'll only last a few thousand miles on the street. But they have a DOT stamp. :D

                              Goodyear GS-D3s are more reasonable, if almost $200/tire is reasonable to you. And they're worthless on snow (the stuff they have in winter in the mountains). Need more info.
                              2000 Firebird convert, chameleon/tan, M5, Y87, TCS, BMR tower brace and panhard, KBDD sfcs, 245/50-16 GSCs

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