installed sway bars

[Finkledbody]

Re: installed sway bars

Hmm.. funny thing you say that, i haven't experienced any loss of traction yet even under HEAVY turning (40 MPH + 90 degree turn = no loss of traction). I am personally fairly inexperienced here but my brother is a machanic an had put that in (an only that in, so the idea of me doing a large amount of modifications all at once, and that made me think it was awesome) to see what kind of difference it would make. It was very noticable so im not to sure about a "large loss of traction when you need it most." An say what you want about him but he does love to race cars an hes no inexperenced person ;) None the less bilstein shocks an springs are on the way :banana:

And thank you for the feed back :)

[Fireball27]

Re: installed sway bars

Arrgh. This is about the worst suspension mod you could do. It's downright dangerous.

Honestly, big rear bars feel fine, even lively, until you really need handling. Then they're trouble. Big trouble. "Lively" changes to jumps out of control as the car loses the rear end.

An oversized rear bar does not make the car handle better. It's the opposite, the bigger a rear bar is, the more it REDUCES rear traction in a corner by weight transfer. It does not reduce roll significantly. It's simply a tuning device to balance cornering load between the front and rear tires. It needs to be the right size, not too big and not too small. But a little too small is better than too big.

Putting a large rear bar on a stock suspension is like putting a full race cam in a stock motor. The stock motor will run worse. The stock suspension will handle worse, particularly when you need good handling most.

Once again, guys who have a big rear bar should use a smaller one. If they think it's good, it's usually because they changed a lot of stuff at the same time and it's the other stuff that is making the car handle better.

If people with an oversized rear bar JUST changed back to a smaller rear bar leaving everything else the same, the following things will happen. The car will feel a litttle less "lively". It will stick to the road better and be more controllable, particularly in tough situations like wet weather or an emergency swerve. The amount of body roll will not change noticeably.

And you'll be a lot better off.

Ok, so i'm shopping around, i hear that 21+mm rear sway bars are dangerous... so is it worth getting the rear bar at all? Is the difference all in the front?

[V6Bob]

Re: installed sway bars

Ok, so i'm shopping around, i hear that 21+mm rear sway bars are dangerous... so is it worth getting the rear bar at all? Is the difference all in the front?

That is the really good question. I don't know. With a big front bar is a 2mm (no more than 2) oversize rear a good idea? Beats me, I'm not expert enough to know. It's really complicated because we have a live axle rear. With double a-arms all around it would be clearly the right way to go. That stuff matters which is why it's easy to get it wrong by using your "common sense". Suspension is complicated.

What I know is that many people seem to be very happy with just the front. That's where essentially all your roll control is. But I don't know if that's the very best setup.

[Fireball27]

Re: installed sway bars

That is the really good question. I don't know. With a big front bar is a 2mm (no more than 2) oversize rear a good idea? Beats me, I'm not expert enough to know. It's really complicated because we have a live axle rear. With double a-arms all around it would be clearly the right way to go. That stuff matters which is why it's easy to get it wrong by using your "common sense". Suspension is complicated.

What I know is that many people seem to be very happy with just the front. That's where essentially all your roll control is. But I don't know if that's the very best setup.

Sounds like a judgement call then. Ok thanks.

[V6Bob]

Re: installed sway bars

Oops. Just realized I missed something important in your post. The sig "Vogtland springs".

That changes everything. I have no idea what those spring rates are, and that's crucial to sway bars. So I'm really unsure of what you should do.

The post of mine you quoted was to a guy putting a 21 rear bar on stock springs/front bar. It didn't take much to know that was a bad idea.

[Fireball27]

Re: installed sway bars

Oops. Just realized I missed something important in your post. The sig "Vogtland springs".

That changes everything. I have no idea what those spring rates are, and that's crucial to sway bars. So I'm really unsure of what you should do.

The post of mine you quoted was to a guy putting a 21 rear bar on stock springs/front bar. It didn't take much to know that was a bad idea.

Hmm... well i don't know either. I'll try looking it up. At any rate, i know that the spring rate is quite higher than the stock ones (cuz its a 1.5 or 6" drop and i can feel it). How does a higher spring rate affect my sway bar choices?

P.S. I already went ahead and bought a GM 32mm front sway bar (the ones used on the 1LE camaros).

[Fireball27]

Re: installed sway bars

Ok, so after some searching i found this for my springs:

Front Spring lb/inch: 336 lb./in. - 542 lb./in.

Rear Spring lb/inch: 77 lb./in - 228 lb./in.

Working Rate (Front) lb/inch: 440 lb./in. - 542 lb./in.

Working Rate (Rear) lb/inch: 183 lb./in. - 228 lb./in.

Sooo, what does this mean? Which numbers are the pertinent ones? And how is this going to affect my sway bar choice(s)

[FirebirdGT]

Re: installed sway bars

Ok, so after some searching i found this for my springs:

Front Spring lb/inch: 336 lb./in. - 542 lb./in.

Rear Spring lb/inch: 77 lb./in - 228 lb./in.

Working Rate (Front) lb/inch: 440 lb./in. - 542 lb./in.

Working Rate (Rear) lb/inch: 183 lb./in. - 228 lb./in.

Sooo, what does this mean? Which numbers are the pertinent ones? And how is this going to affect my sway bar choice(s)

They are variable rate springs. The harder they are compressed, the higher the rate.

[V6Bob]

Re: installed sway bars

Sooo, what does this mean? Which numbers are the pertinent ones? And how is this going to affect my sway bar choice(s)

Springs reduce roll in much the same way bars do. What counts is "total roll resistance" which is a real bear to calculate, involving suspension geometry. The ratio of front/rear spring rates is a crude way of seeing how springs affect balance, if you're looking at the same car with the same suspension geometry. For example V8s use the same rear springs as late model V6s, but bigger front ones. So the front springs contribute more roll resistance and need a bigger rear bar to compensate. Which is why GM puts bigger rear bars on V8s. It ain't because they don't want the V6 to handle well.

But variable rate springs make it really difficult. Which is why race cars don't use them unless they're forced to by the need to keep the car as low as possible for aerodynamic groundforce. We're way out of my league with those.

It's much much easier to spot really bad bar choices than it is to advise someone about good ones. Sorry. You might try calling your spring manufacturer. If you could get the right guy, he could help. Or you could get someone who doesn't know and still feels the need to answer....

Sway bars are the toughest suspension mod to get right. Most people here would be better off by going with a GM engineered package of springs/bars, be it stock V6, stock V8, or 1LE V8. At least you know those are engineered to work together. Putting stuff from various manufacturers together without good knowledge of the theory offers opportunities to get it wrong. The common and dangerous mistake is too big a rear bar, which is the message of most of my posts. I know none of that helps you (understatement), now. I'm posting it for others who read this thread. Really sorry.

[Fireball27]

Re: installed sway bars

^ lol, ok thanks